(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) "Man, my spells are feeling so out of date, I need to go get the new version."

And while we're at it, what about Attribute upkeep? Do you loose a point of strength while you spend a month (or multiple months) suspended in a tube getting genetech done? That would be a bitch! Technology is something much easier to deal with, though Im not sure I like the decrease in Response over time.

"Why doesn't everyone have an Alienware computer? Sure they're very expensive, but you get a lot out of it as well and it's some of the best and most powerful computers on the market." This is what I'm hearing when someone say "Why doesn't everyone have an R6?"

Because they don't need it, it's just not cost effective when you're only using it for cyber clubs, hang outs, VR games, and what equates to today's surfing the web. You could do all that on a fairly low grade cyberdeck, and you just don't need the extra power unless you're specifically trying to do something out of the ordinary with it (Wage slave programmer/controller, Hacker, Rigger, Corp, ect.). The same goes for any non-hacker, why spend the money buying something you're not going to get the full use out of, when you can get something for roughly half the price and still get all you need out of it. Unless you expect every joe blo out there to be able to design and build sprites, software, and entire rigs. It seems you're looking at it very much from the eyes of a Shadowrunning Hacker.

Realistically, I'd expect a natural high strength/body character to train pretty extensively to stay in shape. Or invest in some pharmaceutical wizardryto not have his body breakdown all that muscle.

Admittedly all that training would probably be done in downtime, so the player wouldn't experience the pain.

Technically a hacker might well dedicate his downtime to writing and rewriting his programs to maintain their ratings, but at some stage he'll need more hardware.

Also, if spells were primarily used to deal with (or more accurately against) other spells, everyone would have to keep up with the magical arms race. But spells are mostly used on people or objects, so there's no need. That said, enforcing SotA-type stuff has no real in-game purpose other than to make hackers spend money (or time), although it does also promote a sense of progress/escalation without giving anyone extremely ridiculous dice pools.

Funknetz is a great, great word, as noted. But for real, WiFi is the name of a company, or more precisely WiFi Alliance is the name of a not-for-profit certification org. The technology is WLAN, or whatever, but that's not really a pronounceable word in English (in German it's a type of custard, I believe). "WiFi" refers to a single standard so that the different devices are interoperable, because it would be kind of sucky to have a wireless device that can't talk to other wireless devices. Sort of like buying a Zune. OH, BURN! But really. You don't want that.

The term was coined by the same marketing wizards who came up with "Prozac". Think about that -- although there are newer and probably better antidepressants out now, we still mostly talk about Prozac, right? The name occupies a niche in popular culture that Zoloft or sertraline just isn't going to usurp. Maybe "wifi" will have the same sort of staying power.

Because as the rules are currently written, there will never be anything better, and it will never get old. There is also no physical difference between 1 and 6. Sure, not everyone needs the best, but the best sure is cheap.

Nathanross... did you enforce this rule when you were playing 2nd edition rules?

Just to make it clear for anyone who might not know: The German noun "Funk" (and the related verb "funken") has no relation to the "funk" music style! The u in Funk is pronounced like oo in "moose" or e in "few".
A Funknetz is simply a Netzwerk (network) that uses Funkwellen (radio waves).


Well, in German WLAN is usually pronounced as if it were a German acronym - roughly: Veh-Lunn.


Maybe in the US, yes. The thing is, "wifi" is not a term known over here - as Germany (and all of Europe, AFAIK) doesn't use wifi! Our wireless networks use the closely related but slightly different IEEE 802.11 standard.
And when you look at a name like "IEEE 802.11" you understand why "WLAN" is preferred...

Thank you for your input, one and all.

Couple of things tho..

Trodes need the use of a Sim Module [pg 318].
Using a Sim Module overrides the motor functions while you are immersed in the Sim. Your physical body is limp, as if you were sleeping [pg 318]

So that doesn't sound it's much use for walking around and interacting with the world !!

Also, even if that was viable, there's no mention of being able to interact - just receive information/sensory input..
..It's not for overlaying images, etc to the users sight - it's for sensory immersion.

So, Simsensing isn't a viable option - prices [and the take up] would stay as they are.


No-one's mentioned the interaction of realworld with the overlayed world, as would be needed for using Augmented Reality..
..Any thoughts ??


No-one's mentioned anything about the Commlink being able to see what the user sees and reacting to it [tho someone mentioned triangulation of signale, but I'd go against that because of the lack of finesse in interpreting signals]..
..Any thoughts ??


Can't really see the wireless networks being a series of ad-hoc connections..
..Simply because it's not made only of Commlinks - it's have to have some sort of backbone for everything that's not a Commlink - signs, gear, etc.

And with that is the ownership of such an infrastructure - the Corps will only do it if they can make money from it..
..Which would indicate a poor/basic service for free, and a good service with a subscription.

Hiding in a wirless network ??
Nice idea, but if you can receive a signal from anyone, you're not hidden..
..In the same way that mobile phones can be tracked by triangulating their signal, as long as they're on - regardless if they're accepting calls or not.


Distributed storage or computing ??
Not sure that in a world just recovering from an AI created global network collapse, people would be too willing to let just anyone pass information through their processors, or store data in their storage.


The term WiFi is a publicity term, something nice for consumers to understand and for packaging..
..And is widespread wherever people use English - regardless of whether it's accurate.

No-one in a wireless future will think about connections, or the tech behind it, except the real developer techies [notice how no-one in Star Trek worries about it, because it's just part of life]..
..In the same way that no-one in SR worries about OS's. memory speeds, bandwidth, etc - it's very boring and doesn't really add anything.

Yes, I know many SR people are technically oriented, and many people really do think that detailing the technical aspects of vehicles or guns actually add something to SR..
..But that's not most people.


When I grab my iPhone and go places, I switch it on and use it - I surf the web, send emails and look up maps without worrying where I am or what sort of connection I'm using [my costs are included and I generally get good access]
The main thing I can't do is have the information in my field of view, with interaction with phantom button/signs/etc..
..Which is what I'd need an Image Link and AR Gloves for, and that'll add much expense to my ownership.


As I see it, the whole wireless thing was put in by the developers because it's supposed to make people want to play Hackers, because they want to make SR 'accessible' and because they think it's one way to 'update' SR.

I think they messed up big time with, and no-one really cares about such stuff.

Hackers are a staple of the genre, but remaking the game just so they can be with the other characters indicates [to me] that they looked at the wrong thing..
..Remoulding Hackers and Riggers to be the same thing ??
Totally ignores Riggers and Hackers in cyberpunk fiction, and really shows how much they bent the game out of shape to make things fit.

There are several RPG based on cyberpunk and they all suffer from the Hacker problem, but they don't remake the RPG to make them viable..
..They offer them as a choice, and leave them for Players to play - or not.

Only when you are fully immersed is your motor function impaired by the sim module. It is, furthermore, trivial to selectively overwrite portions of the experience field when you can already write the correct things to the right part (overwriting the entire field of view requires knowledge of how to selectively overwrite every small bit of the field of view individually). Furthermore, if you cannot also manipulate controls whilst using ASIST, then how do you get anything done in VR? I therefore believe that most will be able to manipulate standard computing UI objects using only their minds (as they would have to in VR) and that would extend to using ASIST with AR, plus you have an internal model of your limb position anyway and this could potentially be extracted with credulous near-future-tech to allow you to handle AR controls with your hands.

Your Commlink will have some form of positioning system (potentially using signal strength from devices with known, fixed locations) and would be able to identify relatively accurately where other objects are through multiple triangulations, or else all wireless accessable devices inherently know where they are (again, possibly using signal strength from known devices with fixed locations). This is not too "inaccurate" since we're not dealing with precision systems (since when did your everyday activities necessitate precision?), and your accuracy for triangulation improves with the more known points, anyway, and I expect that there are going to be a number of well known nodes that will have their positions accurately measured and that these will be used to get a good fix on locations.

I do not think that you want AR and the real world to interact, it'd be an inconvenience if someone walking too close to you disrupted your phone call with someone important, or your important financial transaction, or filling out that important bureaucratic form that tells the government that you're really alive and would like to get a SIN.

You can keep your opinions on the development reasons behind the introduction of AR and wireless networking in Shadowrun, I'll continue to imagine the awesome possibilties and fawn over it becoming a reality in our world.

Yeah, the English word "funk" comes from French, sort of, but still, any word that has "funk" in it is great: Telefunken, Funkensender, Funknetz

WLAN Smithy. Super-WLAN. Etc. Of course, we have the clumsy "doubleyou" pronunciation of "W", or the slack-jawed yokelish "dubyuh". For some reason "dub" hasn't really ever caught on.

So realy, 802.11? That's, like, old and slow legacy stuff.

No IEEE standard 802.11 has all wireless PHY and MAC layer stuff. A B ... through Z (minus L, O, Q and X)

Er? To me the point of AR, pretty much, is interacting with RL -- overlays, AROs, little info things where your various sensor data shows up (like a highlighted area where your mm-wave radar has detected a concealed handgun under someone's jacket and whatnot).

If you are feeling bored, watch this video of Bruce Sterling mostly on interfaces. He mentions that a number of the cyberpunk tropes are there because they make it easer to tell a story in a book, not because they really make any real sense. Including the concept of AR glasses that he created.

"Just listening to Bruce lay out the litany of devices that the mobile phone has replaced is a moment of sheer technological hilarity; and hearing him talk about why science fiction writers love talking computers (which all turn into Mr Clippy in the real world) is an eye-opening exercise in the difference between sensawunda and cognitive loading. "

I think there might be a little bit of hubris in his statements. Cyberpunk's concept of AR is not in the least bit original, it's simply an evolution of military HUD technology that was around decades before cyberpunk. It's not even that highly refined when you consider the targetting monocles on "modern" helo gunships that originated slightly before the birth of cyberpunk. And of course we shouldn't even have to discuss the practicality issue.

-NR

Oh, sure, you want the AR to relate to the real world, but you don't want physical objects to interact with AROs. There is a difference between the two and it is important. Interaction is active, relation is passive. You want your AROs to interact with logical devices and other AROs, but only relate to the physical world. If they interacted with the physical world, then people passing nearby would knock your ARO windows around and that would make working with them somewhat difficult.

Your driving directions overlay ARO wouldn't be very useful if passing cars knocked it off the road, nor would that handy overlay of the subjects internal organs be useful if your scalpel throws it to the floor when you make incissions. You do not want your AROs to interact with the physical world because the interactions would be one way (physical -> AR) and not conducive to the usefulness of AR unless such interaction is intended to be part of the ARO program (like, say, miracle shooter).

Actually, from my understanding and some Wikipedia reading: "Wi-Fi" is a marketing term coined by the Wi-Fi Alliance, an alliance of hardware manufacturers that certify wireless network hardware. Only hardware manufactured by an alliance member can sport the "Wi-Fi" logo.
But the technology behind the marketing is IEEE 802.11!
So Wi-Fi is IEEE 802.11 but IEEE 802.11 is not Wi-Fi (though both terms are used interchangeably in some countries). Kinda like Ubuntu and Debian.

The most common WLAN speeds you can find here in Germany are 11MBit/s (802.11b) and 54MBit/s (802.11g). The next version (802.11n, 540MBit/s) is scheduled for 2009 although some hardware based on preliminary specifictions ("draft-n") is already around.
There are also some non-standard networks around ("PBCC", "802.11b+", "802.11g++") but you need proprietary hardware for those.

/I edited out the bits I wasn't going to address. Hope you don't mind.

In many cases AR doesn't need to interact with RL. Windows or objects would be projected into the users FOV using simsense the same way deckers have interacted with VR since the early days of SR. The difference being that RL is still perceivable through or behind the overlay. Consistent with this, AROs that pop up in response to RFIDs would display whatever information they were encoded with, perhaps including the proximity and direction the signal comes from, if pertinent (signs, for example). AR that maps to RL in the FOV - AR architecture and the like - is harder to justify without handwavium, but we're already accepting two way translation between mental impulses and electronics with the existence of cyberware. Consider, though, that with satnavs we have digital models of our location, and GPS is already increasingly available on mobile phones, so the stumbling block is simply the overlay of that digital model in the right orientation into the simsense overlay.

I have no problem with the wireless infrastructure being owned, operated, and profited upon by the corps. However, we don't charge our PCs water rates based on how many showers they take, or even RP the showering process (at least in most games I'd imagine) and I never had a phone bill for using my phone in SR3; it is all assumed and covered by the lifestyle costs. I would assign the same status to SR4 commlink charges.

As far as being 'in hidden mode', note that the Sniffer program can still pick up a Hidden PAN. The way I see it, is that a Hidden network is not advertising its existence, and is minimising its data usage - shutting down instant messenger programs and not broadcasting the users profile, not accepting connections initiated by other devices etc. It would still be pretty damned obvious in a low data environment, such as the wilderness, but in a high intensity signal environment, picking it out from the crowd would be tricky, as the RAW suggests.

As I read it, the *wireless* infrastructure on the street isn't owned by the megacorps. I think it's made pretty clear that short-range traffic is handled on a mesh-style peer-to-peer networking basis by all the nodes in range which overlap. It's the protocols that enforce this cooperation while preventing (by default at least; obviously a hack could change this) snooping on the traffic, which permitted the rapid regrowth of Matrix 2.0 from the ashes of the Crash.

The Corps own the longer-distance hops, of course, and they'll be *participants* in the melange of service provision at street level, but it's only the gateway nodes that will be paying the Corps for connectivity, and as such they'll be microcharging your account and/or ramming paid advertising down your virtual gullet as you use them. Deckers of course have ways of avoiding such charges.

AR was a really neat inclusion to SR4 IMO.... I gave it a somewhat updated feel. As to the commlink issue, you need to consider the following; Decks were orginally about the size of a laptop, and were in a lot of ways the developers original idea on what mobile computing would be in the future; however technology has significantly advanced since SR was originally publish, and computers have become way more common than the developers could have predicted at the time. Commlinks are to cellphones as the original idea of decks were to laptops at the time; an idealized future version with more power. However, they also represent the computerized world. Also, I love the idea that people would interact and even base perceptions on a network id.... as for owning one, I see it as if you aren't broadcasting an active pan in certain security zones or conditions, the Star is likely to assume you are a runner or criminal and hose you down, rather than exposing themselves to counter-fire to confirm if you are a criminal...... good motivations for even the poorest of people to buy, find or steal a commlink.

I assume walking through the streets of 2070 with AR is like walking around in an MMOG today. You've got the mini-map displayed somewhere in a corner, for quick orientation, you see tags on all objects with RIFD, and you can quickly /examine them for more information (looking up profiles, accessing AR menus of vending machines, and so on) and your friends' short messages pop up in a chat window while you speak with others over your phone (ventrilo, teamspeak). Info boxes from your gun, and other gear pop up as well, and thank to RIFD tags, you can even sift through your gear (inventory) electronically.

With a biomonitor, you even have your "Life counter" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

I dunno, I think that would make for a pretty hilarious mod. Maybe one of those practical joke things like the Blue Screen of Death screensaver?

>Imagines a hacker uploading that mod to the pursuing security forces<

Try to use that smartlink now sucker!

As for the Bruce Sterling video, he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. He just got done claiming that a direct brain/computer interface is impossible, when it's already been done years ago--I'll see if I can pull an article up on the net.

(Short version is, paraplegic got an experimental implanted device that allowed him to wirelessly move a mouse pointer with his brain, and I think he could type letters too.)

Finally, on to the topic at hand:

I'd say the #1 reason for people to carry commlinks is: It carries your SIN. Without it, prove you're not SINless.

If you are SINless, and aren't interested in pretending otherwise, then fine, don't get a commlink--I wonder if LoneStar will give you a cheap one to hold the criminal SIN they'll issue you when they pick you up.

As for displays, comlinks have a built-in Trid display. Unless I've misinterpreted the text--and alot of the artwork--trid is loosely analogous to modern holograms. IE: You're commlink doesn't have to have a big screen, it's display can hover in the air over the device, which you see happening in several of the illustrations.

A lot of this stuff is covered in the description of commlinks in the main rulebook. AR Gloves and Image-Linked shades or cybereyes are nifty and do add some functionality, but a commlink will still function as a stand-alone device. Think of it as the difference between using a pda, and using a pda hooked up to a docking station with a full-sized keyboard and external monitor.


Finally, about the "WiFi is a brand name" thing: So is "Band-Aid", but you don't hear many people asking for "Adhesive Strips" when they get cut. Marketing works, sad but true.

Actually I suppose that Windows somehow interact with RL to arrange the display so that it doesn't cover anything too important. As far as I know that's one of the big issues with AR/HUD displays.

There's also transparency, which works to a greater or lesser degree. Like Fuchs said, these are all things that you already see in videogames, so it isn't hard to imagine how they'd be implemented in real life.

Considering that wireless networks are locked down now [well, in theory - many people and companies don't seem to do too good a job of basic wireless security], I don't see that an ad-hoc wireless network will let people connect and pass data through them..
..Especially not just a short time after yet another Matrix crash.




That's pretty much how I envision it.

However, in a computer game you use a mouse and/or keyboard keys to select various options..
..But how to do that for a HUD, with no brain connection ??




I don't mind at all - thank you for asking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



That's a great phrase, I'm sure it'll crop up in my conversations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




My thoughts are about the fact that if you are online and connected, the Corp will know about you and where you are and who the system says you are..
..They are almost guaranteed to log who signs, etc interact with [for advertising, if not for security], so the only way to hide would be to switch off.