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masterofm
post Apr 25 2008, 08:37 AM
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Now I was thinking that corporate sabotage, a Johnson skimming on a project, high demand for project turnover, maximizing profits while cutting costs, and data steals seem to be somewhat of a common thing in the SR setting. Now the question that I wonder is do corporations just release inferior products more then once and awhile? Do they have the option of saying that they were sabotaged if they didn't realize their new soda brand causes birth defects in pregnant women? There are shoddy products released all the time in the world today... My RL experience was using a slicer off of the home shopping network, and the man on the TV made cutting carrots on the device look so easy and simple. I wanted to get it thinking maybe it would help my grandmother cut carrots (I was 12)... long story short - it was crap and it sliced my thumb open due to the fact that the cutting device just totally sucked (I wasn't a wimpy kid at that age either.) I did learn my lesson though and never bought anything like that again. >.<

Do corporations still try and sell snake oil for the only reason that sometimes they can get away with it in a setting like this? Are some people brand loyal that even if they know it's bad at least they know that there are probably other products out there that other corps release that suck as well? Are corporations held under the fire when these kind of problems occur? Does the media just cover all this kind of crap up and portray a "everything is fine just go about your daily lives" big brother kind of thing?

If the media doesn't do what it's intended to do, and there is no real way of uncovering all the problems a corp faces, or if every corp is pointing fingers at the other constantly (with the fact that probably every large corp has info on some shady dealings of any other large corp is probably pretty likely) it feels like to me that SR corporations can just get away with selling shoddy or poorly tested products sometimes (or maybe quite often depending on how dark someone's setting is.)

Thoughts?
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Shiloh
post Apr 25 2008, 10:10 AM
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Yeah, they (the Megas) can pretty much get away with selling sub-par products. If it's actively *dangerous* they'll probably stop selling to anyone who has a voice or about whom people with a voice care, and then set their attack-marketeers to work on a charm offensive. The larger non-sovereign corps can get away with a lot because they're so important to the economies of the places where they operate. The Press coverage will range from smarmily excusing to rabidly accusing, and generally get lost in the mush of information overload.

Runners get involved in some of the coverups and some of the dirt-digging. Excuses of sabotage could be pretty viable, but might be a sign of weakness; "terrorists" probably get blamed when something goes *spectacularly* wrong.
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Cantankerous
post Apr 25 2008, 10:38 AM
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Who do you think owns the media of 2050+? The megacorps maybe...as subsidiaries, through front companies often? Even when a particular corp doesn't have the newsies in their pockets, the corp that does will STILL play the cover up boggie, even for their rivals, because they too have their dirty deeds which might get aired if they don't play the game. Why do you think there has never been any official whistle blowing worth a pile of tiddly winks against Aztechnology? It's just too dangerous.

You don't get to me a mega without having secrets you NEED to have secret forever.

Sooo, in the boardrooms of Company A when they hear about the journalistic expose' that is going to uncover the fact that they sold soft drinks that will cause birth defects 1 per 10,000 among pregnant women...

CEO A: "They're going to show what? Who the hell owns that station? No, forget that, who owns that network presently? Mitsuhama? God da... *raises voice to activate the secretarial link* "Susan, get me Tamatsu Sakura on his private line. Now." *thirty seconds later* "Tamatus san, this is Charlie. There's a big load of hogs wallop that one of the local stations y'all own is about to spill concerning one of the products made by a major subsidiary of ours. Yeah, the Soda thing. Of course it not true. It's no truer than that thing we've got in our files of when your subsidiary was dumping toxic waste into the Snohomish right before all those people died in '38. Yeah, it's hell when the press makes these things up. You'll put someone on it? Thanks Tamatsu san. Hey, by the way, how are Tomiko and the kids doing? Really? That's a shame, but life goes on. You too Tamatsu san." *bellows* "Damn it Susan, you're supposed to remind me of when the major players get divorced."

If the bit gets aired, it never gets any follow up. Or it gets retracted afterwards. Or sometimes just dropped.



Isshia
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hobgoblin
post Apr 25 2008, 11:03 AM
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and the journalist with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

hell, was not the invited person in emergence a journalist for a independent news outlet? one that sadly had as much about aliens landing on the white house lawn as the real stuff?
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CanRay
post Apr 25 2008, 12:03 PM
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Or you can pull an Aztechnology, it gets dumped to after the Dog Food bit, and four or five new products comes on, reminding people to BUY BUY BUY!!!

All available at Stuffer Shack!
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Wesley Street
post Apr 25 2008, 03:06 PM
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A lack of government or legal regulation isn't going to absolve even the most evil of megacorporations of corporate responsibility. I'm sure morally questionable actions (ie: murdering competitors, kidnapping test subjects, etc) and potentially lethal shortcuts are swept under the rug but if corps produce a product that harms or kills large swaths of the population... that's bad business.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 25 2008, 03:09 PM
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first you sell the illness, then you sell the treatment (and keep the cure eternally suppressed)...
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Cantankerous
post Apr 25 2008, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Apr 25 2008, 05:06 PM) *
A lack of government or legal regulation isn't going to absolve even the most evil of megacorporations of corporate responsibility. I'm sure morally questionable actions (ie: murdering competitors, kidnapping test subjects, etc) and potentially lethal shortcuts are swept under the rug but if corps produce a product that harms or kills large swaths of the population... that's bad business.


Again, hell yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You gotta get the stuff off the street right smartly once you're found out, but the damage control still MUST get handled this way for any mega to stay a mega for very long.


Isshia
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Wesley Street
post Apr 25 2008, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 25 2008, 11:09 AM) *
first you sell the illness, then you sell the treatment (and keep the cure eternally suppressed)...


But you don't make the illness terminal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Marketing is a two step process: 1) Convince your target audience that they are unhappy. 2) Tell the target audience that they will be happy with your product. The average Westerner is bombarded by 3000 advertisements every day. Imagine that cranked up to "11" and you've got Shadowrun.
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Shiloh
post Apr 25 2008, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Apr 25 2008, 04:06 PM) *
A lack of government or legal regulation isn't going to absolve even the most evil of megacorporations of corporate responsibility. I'm sure morally questionable actions (ie: murdering competitors, kidnapping test subjects, etc) and potentially lethal shortcuts are swept under the rug but if corps produce a product that harms or kills large swaths of the population... that's bad business.

Yes, it's bad business, but Oh look, the goodyear blimp! They have many ways of deflecting attention and *appearing* to do something about it. Entire slums can be cleared and provided with sanitation and clinics and schools and roads for the price of an advertising campaign...

"Best thing to happen to our neighbourhood, that toxic spill. Sure the kids may grow up with no arms and no legs, but at least they get to grow up and get an education. "
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Cantankerous
post Apr 25 2008, 03:24 PM
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Anybody here ever read "The Merchant's War" by Frederick Pohl?

Mokie Okie Okie Coke! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I actually have something almost that bad set up in the Bangkok "Corporate Plex" zone. There it might be more like x40. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Isshia
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hobgoblin
post Apr 25 2008, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Apr 25 2008, 05:17 PM) *
But you don't make the illness terminal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



but the more it appears to be, the better...
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Wesley Street
post Apr 25 2008, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 25 2008, 11:26 AM) *
but the more it appears to be, the better...


Agreed. Especially if you're balding or can't get an erection. I'd rather be dead! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)
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CanRay
post Apr 25 2008, 03:32 PM
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NERPS! It's good for what ails ya!
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hobgoblin
post Apr 25 2008, 03:58 PM
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may cause your skin to go purple with green spots...
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Daddy's Litt...
post Apr 25 2008, 04:22 PM
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The real crap is sold through subsidiaries, so it can be denied when discovered. "We at Ares are horrified at the actions of the Kwick Kover Korporation and promise a full inquiry into all the facts. The responsible people will be brought to justice."

While in the back rooms. "How could you be so dumb as to get caught?"

More likely runners will be hired to dig up dirt on different divisions within the same corp "I know Robins is selling sub standard material but I need proof to bring before the board. and with him out of the way, my career moves ahead."
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CanRay
post Apr 25 2008, 04:44 PM
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Exactly!

Or, "If it exists or not, we'll find the evidence, sir."

Runners are sent in to provide the sub-standard materials.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 25 2008, 04:54 PM
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plausible deniability is a nice thing, no? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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CanRay
post Apr 25 2008, 05:09 PM
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"Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility."
- Ambrose Bierce
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Seriphen
post Apr 25 2008, 08:57 PM
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You would also get Corps with grudges, or competition, against one another to undermine their position. I could just see one corp running a story through a subsidy about not buying the competitors soda because of the 'harmful effects.' Hiring shadowrunners to either find the proof or plant it.
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CanRay
post Apr 25 2008, 09:50 PM
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Well, there's that infamous line in Fight Club about Corporations and how they handle recalls...
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DocTaotsu
post Apr 26 2008, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 25 2008, 10:23 AM) *
Yes, it's bad business, but Oh look, the goodyear blimp! They have many ways of deflecting attention and *appearing* to do something about it. Entire slums can be cleared and provided with sanitation and clinics and schools and roads for the price of an advertising campaign...

"Best thing to happen to our neighbourhood, that toxic spill. Sure the kids may grow up with no arms and no legs, but at least they get to grow up and get an education. "


And of course that makes them the perfect size and mental conditioning for extensive cyborg implantation later in life.

You know, if they so "choose" too.
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Janice
post Apr 26 2008, 09:40 AM
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I'd imagine that the lesser corporations that aren't benefiting from extra-territoriality are subject to many of the same laws they are now, with all the same capacity to throw money at problems until they go away. However, the corporations that are their own separate nations are in their own tub of beans. Being a separate nation isn't a "get out of laws free" card, while it does free you from many of the minor problems of having to answer to someone else's rules in regards to what you do with your own stuff, it also means that if your exports represent a significant risk to their users and you ship them to other countries willingly that you're a foreign power interfering with another nation. Now, my Shadowrun lore is somewhat limited, but I don't think I'm entirely unjustified in saying that most major non corporate world powers are very likely to outclass the megacorporations in funds and political pulling power. Now, I do understand that they have a mutually beneficial relationship (mega corporations and the nations that buy their junk), but if one partner (the corporation in this case with their willingness to damage the voters) proves to be hazardous to the other, I don't think it's just going to simmer and sit idle. So, I'm quite willing to bet the corporations are pretty careful about the quality of their product, not to say mistakes don't happen, just to say that they aren't likely to take the risk of shipping faulty product if it can be helped.
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quentra
post Apr 26 2008, 10:10 AM
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By canon, the ten megas account for roughly half the worlds GDP. So no, nations do not outclass megas. Some AAs and A corps, maybe, but not triples.
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Kerberos
post Apr 26 2008, 10:23 AM
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QUOTE (quentra @ Apr 26 2008, 05:10 AM) *
By canon, the ten megas account for roughly half the worlds GDP. So no, nations do not outclass megas. Some AAs and A corps, maybe, but not triples.

I seem to recall Imperial Japan having significant power over the Japanacorps and UCAS might also deal with Megas as an equal or close to it.
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