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hobgoblin
post Apr 26 2008, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE (Janice @ Apr 26 2008, 11:40 AM) *
I'd imagine that the lesser corporations that aren't benefiting from extra-territoriality are subject to many of the same laws they are now, with all the same capacity to throw money at problems until they go away. However, the corporations that are their own separate nations are in their own tub of beans. Being a separate nation isn't a "get out of laws free" card, while it does free you from many of the minor problems of having to answer to someone else's rules in regards to what you do with your own stuff, it also means that if your exports represent a significant risk to their users and you ship them to other countries willingly that you're a foreign power interfering with another nation. Now, my Shadowrun lore is somewhat limited, but I don't think I'm entirely unjustified in saying that most major non corporate world powers are very likely to outclass the megacorporations in funds and political pulling power. Now, I do understand that they have a mutually beneficial relationship (mega corporations and the nations that buy their junk), but if one partner (the corporation in this case with their willingness to damage the voters) proves to be hazardous to the other, I don't think it's just going to simmer and sit idle. So, I'm quite willing to bet the corporations are pretty careful about the quality of their product, not to say mistakes don't happen, just to say that they aren't likely to take the risk of shipping faulty product if it can be helped.



some higher ups maybe. but what about when your some department head that looks at the production costs skyrocketing and the earning dropping like a rock? "we are using the best quality parts, sir"...
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masterofm
post Apr 26 2008, 07:12 PM
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In Shadowrun I always thought that if corps could get away with "it" then there is nothing stopping them from doing it. Was the HMVV virus created by a crop medaling in awakened viruses? Does AZT create some really big no no's that would probably have the corporate court order an omega code? Do all the triple A's do things like this? I just think that the biggest problem is that the public is probably tired of corporations pointing fingers at one another to the point where it is probably even hard to distinguish what is real and what is false. After a while they will probably just stick with one product and use it even if the competitor says that it could cause kidney failure (because the product the competitor is using has been pointed out that it can cause blindness in 5% of the people who use it.) Also do corporations that people work for forbid people from using certain products released by the competition (that is if they want to keep their jobs?) Like Ares saying "You will buy our comlink or you will no longer have a future here," kind of thing.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 26 2008, 08:44 PM
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most likely, if you work for the corp you live on corp land, inside a corp controlled walled garden.

basically the shops carry only corp products and your payed in corp "money".

only the real big ones go outside...
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Mäx
post Apr 26 2008, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Janice @ Apr 26 2008, 12:40 PM) *
Now, my Shadowrun lore is somewhat limited, but I don't think I'm entirely unjustified in saying that most major non corporate world powers are very likely to outclass the megacorporations in funds and political pulling power.


No they definedly do not, most goverments still exist only so that megas don't have to bother with ruling the countries and taking care of all the people.
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CanRay
post Apr 26 2008, 11:05 PM
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Janice
post Apr 26 2008, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 26 2008, 01:34 PM) *
No they definedly do not, most goverments still exist only so that megas don't have to bother with ruling the countries and taking care of all the people.

Now, I apologize if I'm being ignorant, but that doesn't make a lick of sense. The U.C.A.S. (as a readily available example) is going to have a great deal more people living within in it's borders than even the largest megacorporations. now assuming even half these people have a SIN, that means half the much larger population is paying taxes exclusively to this government. Megacorporations while they do gain large amounts of revenue from their corporate ventures have to compete with other mega corporations for their dollar and are only going to get very small portions of populations paying to them. Now, megacorporations have the advantage in that they can work internationally, but no matter where they operate, they're still going to be competing with other megas for their revenue, as well as innumerable other smaller, local corporations that are paying taxes to the local government. There's also the fact that the mega corporations would likely have to pay significant taxes to the governments of the nations they operating in, so even as separate nations, they still have to answer to the people in charge of the land they're making money off of. Now, I'm not saying that you're wrong on your knowledge of Shadowrun canon, I just think if that's the canon, it doesn't make sense.
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TonkaTuff
post Apr 27 2008, 05:34 AM
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Well, the main problem is that, while the UCAS itself may have more money via tax revenue than Renraku or Novatech, the government officials (and lower-tier social servants) don't get paid in proportion to how much money "the government" rakes in. So they're highly susceptible to large, discrete credit infusions from the corporate entities who'd just as soon see their problems go away than deal with the courts when something goes awry. Plus, a government is more in the business of redistributing wealth, rather than making and holding onto it. While corporations keep a lot of their revenue (or spread it around within the corp) and spend the rest of it to amass even more wealth. And then there's the matter that, as you pointed out, the corps pay a token tax amount (large corporations today pay very little taxes, proportionally, SR corps probably end up making the government owe them) and (more importantly) provide the jobs that the government's citizens use to pay their own taxes. As a consequence, the government is very hesitant to interfere too much, lest the corporations just pack up and go somewhere that they can operate with less interference. And an unemployed citizenry calls for government money, but doesn't contribute much in return.
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Janice
post Apr 27 2008, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE (TonkaTuff @ Apr 26 2008, 09:34 PM) *
provide the jobs that the government's citizens use to pay their own taxes

Don't most megacorp wage slaves pay taxes to the megacorporation being that they're separate national entities?
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Cantankerous
post Apr 27 2008, 07:54 AM
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Taxes, compared to corporate revenue, amount to squat. Compare what it takes to run a government, how MOST major world governments operate at from a large to an UNBELIEVABLY MASSIVE deficit after their basic services are taken care of and you begin to see the problem.

Every Mega is operating at a huge to UNBELIEVABLY MASSIVE profit after their basic goods and services are taken care of...and they often have larger bottom lines than the nations, with EACH the big ten having larger bottom lines than ANY one nation.

In the Shadowrun World, more than in our own, money is power. It isn't a difficult thing for the majors to all but outright OWN the national governments. The Senators and Congress critters and on down to the local Aldermen TODAY are massively influenced by corporate desires. That is simple pork barrel politics 101. In the Shadowrun World magnify that by a factor of fifty. Occasionally you'll get a Senator in office that got there without major corporate backing, but he/she is surrounded by 95+ (99+ in Shadowrun) others who ARE there because of corporate backing and therein lies the rub. You do NOT take a dump on the people who put you in office and retain said office more than a single term.

Hey, today in most major industrialized nations there is already an immense amount of corporate influence with the major nations being the bigger players. When THEY (the major nations) get reduced to second stringers, as they are in Shadowrun, how much REAL influence do you think they can manage to wield?



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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 11:18 AM
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How bad off is the Mega-Powerful USA after the MegaCorps occured?

Bad enough off that it combined with Canada, and gave it top billing in the name! That alone says loads.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 27 2008, 02:09 PM
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megacorps, and loosing half its landmass...
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 02:12 PM
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To a bunch of Magical First Nations People (Amer-Indians), and a bunch of angry Frenchmen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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hobgoblin
post Apr 27 2008, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (Janice @ Apr 27 2008, 07:54 AM) *
Don't most megacorp wage slaves pay taxes to the megacorporation being that they're separate national entities?



not directly. but your payed in corp "money" and shop in corp stores. its not without reason its called wageslave...

take this concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant

and strip away the part about a limited timeframe...
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 27 2008, 09:20 AM) *
strip away the part about a limited timeframe...

What are you talking about?

It's a limited timeframe.

Only your whole life.

Born in a Corporate Hospital, sing the Corporate Loyalty Song every morning, Corporate Meals, Corporate Dress, Corporate Prayer at your Funeral...
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hobgoblin
post Apr 27 2008, 02:45 PM
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the funny thing is that said corps sounds very communist in their internal workings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 02:48 PM
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True, except that anyone is free to purchase stock in the company and have a free vote in how their Company is run!
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Cantankerous
post Apr 27 2008, 02:50 PM
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They aren't at all Communist... just communal. The words sound similar but the differences are vast.


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Cantankerous
post Apr 27 2008, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 27 2008, 04:48 PM) *
True, except that anyone is free to purchase stock in the company and have a free vote in how their Company is run!


And if you think your vote counts there a fiftieth as much as it counts in a "democracy" then I have this wonderful Bridge in Arizona for sale that you'd just love.


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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 02:54 PM
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Unless you are a shareholder in the Pueblo Corporate Council.
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Janice
post Apr 27 2008, 08:17 PM
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Alright, thanks for the primer on megacorps, I only came into shadowrun with 4th edition and have limited experience with the fluff, so I have only my own logic to operate on for the most part. I gotta say: megacorporations really suck.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 27 2008, 09:26 PM
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for anyone other then the big guys on top (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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CanRay
post Apr 28 2008, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE (Janice @ Apr 27 2008, 03:17 PM) *
Alright, thanks for the primer on megacorps, I only came into shadowrun with 4th edition and have limited experience with the fluff, so I have only my own logic to operate on for the most part. I gotta say: megacorporations really suck.

In more ways than one...

And the kicker is, the rules they play by make Shadowrunning part of the system!
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Shiloh
post Apr 28 2008, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 27 2008, 03:45 PM) *
the funny thing is that said corps sounds very communist in their internal workings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Less "Communist", more "Stalinist"... and with absolutely no concern for their wageslaves beyond that (or the appearance of that) which benefits the bottom line.
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Shiloh
post Apr 28 2008, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE (Cantankerous @ Apr 27 2008, 03:51 PM) *
And if you think your vote counts there a fiftieth as much as it counts in a "democracy" then I have this wonderful Bridge in Arizona for sale that you'd just love.


Yeah. You may not even *have* a vote. Most issued stock is non-voting. Some issued stock doesn't pay a dividend, even; it exists only to be traded.
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Iracundus
post Apr 28 2008, 10:14 AM
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The fact some shadowruns involve exposing corporate wrongdoing to the public means corporations, even megacorps, at at some minimal level sensitive to public opinion if only because it can negatively impact outside sales. That is for example why Renraku took such a beating from the Arcology incident. Aside from the material losses, it sent the company's local reputation down the tubes. Granted, the sensitivity of the corps to this probably extends only so far as to attempt cover up or damage control, which may mean some minor politically face saving gestures or sacrificing of scapegoats.


In the old Corporate Shadowfiles it suggested the reason the corporations have not become the governments is because they don't want to deal with providing some of the non-profitable basic services of a government. The remnants of national identity in the Shadowrun 6th world era also mean the corporations probably still do pay some small amount of tax to national governments, more for symbolic purposes than anything else in order to show John Doe citizen on the street that the corporations are nice and law abiding entities.

Corporate Shadowfiles also examined some of the finer points of the extraterritoriality clause including how it extended in a cone of air above a facility and also a cone of ground underneath. This actually limits the corporations right to pollute and make a mess in some sense as if such material drifts out of "their" airspace or ground space, the government (presumably backed up by other corps) would have the right to come down on them for fouling up other people's property.

I see all the corporations and national governments existing in a balance of power. While each individual extraterritorial corp might have absolute power within its own territory, they do business on the outside as well. Too many unsavory dealings or scandals or overt interference in the government would lead the other major players to oppose and aid any victim if only to prevent the first corp from gaining excessive dominance.
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