Not only do you take the internet seriously, you know how I feel about you better than I do. You are awesome.

Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Some things might seem obvious to some, but are not always obvious to all. I believe that when a significant number of people argue about something - especially something fairly basic -, then the language used should be clarified or the issue should be addressed in FAQ.

Larme, we all argue, bitch and complain because we absolutely love the game and want to make it better for everyone. No need to be hatin'...

I'm not hatin'. I see a post that tickles my funny bone, I respond as such, without regard to whether that person thinks I have it out for them or not. The intertron is not supposed to be a serious place, and I think people should be able to poke fun at each other without someone crying foul.

The quote is the weapon line for the hardliner gloves. It doesn't say "hardliner glove" it says "Hardliner Gloves". By RAW there is no way to purchase a single hardliner glove, much as there is no way to purchase only the sleeve of an armor jacket.

OH MY GOD! RAW also doesn't say how to eat! Now everyone is dead because we can't eat...
Seriously...

Actually, RAW doesn't tell you how to eat, but it also doesn't make you die from not eating... so we're fine.

Well, damn...
You just won the internet... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I believe this whole big slide started with Fortune arguing that the FAQ should make it explicit that you can't use Two Weapon Style with weapons using Unarmed Combat (e.g. shock gloves and hardliner gloves). Now some say it's obvious that it doesn't apply, but we've all seen people who think it applies. So I'm not sure I understand the opposition to making it explicit in the FAQ. If we all agree that it doesn't make sense, then what are we arguing about exactly? If the rules can be made clearer, why wouldn't we want that? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAnyways...

I agree with Tarantula that you should only be able to get the advantages of two weapon style with two pairs of hardliner gloves.

This is yet another reason why quad-armed cyberzombies are made of win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Boy, I really came in late to the thread ...

Yes and no. The 4IP guy can borrow the same number of actions as the 1IP guy, but the 4IP guy recovers 4 times as fast. It's hard to get things done by just reacting to others actions.

By the way, to add to kindling to fire (concerning the definition of "ext available action").
Page 132 - Begin Action Phase. - A character has up to 3 actions per action phase (one free action and 2 simple actions). So, I go Full Defense and shoot you twice because I only gave up my next available free action ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

So how do you feel about a one-armed guy using one Hardliner Glove?

How about a one-armed Adept using one enchanted Hardliner Glove Weapon Focus?

On borrowing actions, I would rule the maximum number of outstanding actions you may have is equal to one-half Reaction, round up. For example, a 5 Reaction individual would be able to interrupt 3 times, after which he cannot do anything. At his next action, he may not do anything, but his outstanding actions drops to 2. He may take another interrupt action, bringing his outstanding back up to the 3 maximum, but must still wait 2 turns (assuming no more interrupts) before he can take a normal action.

Standard movement does not take an action.

On Shock Gloves & Hardliners being a weapon or weapons, I would rule that anything using the Unarmed Combat skill is technically regarded as unarmed (aka neither are weapons). As for how the guard you are trying to get past regards them however...

On Two-Weapon Style & Unarmed Combat, I can see the issues people have with it. Myself however, do not see an issue allowing someone to split their dice pool to attack twice with Unarmed Combat - you do have more than one natural weapon after all, and so do not see why Two-Weapon Style cannot be applied. It's not all that different from carrying a sword & dagger to go on permanent full defense.

Better question:
How do you feel about Hardliner Gloves being enchanted as one weapon and adding it's bonus in full to both dice pools when two-weapon fighting?

Except they can be enchanted as Weapon Foci.



But if you allow Unarmed Combat to apply to Two-Weapon Style, a person is pretty much never in a position to not use Full Defense. At least with a sword and dagger, or two knives, the character could be disarmed. In my opinion, it's pure cheese!

Shrug. I'm the one that originally started this weird crap by advocating that Two-Weapon Style be clarified to deny its use in conjunction with Unarmed Combat (which I cannot believe anyone that agrees with my position would argue so vehemently against). Glyph has pretty much agreed with me, so I think it should be pretty obvious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Actually, you have a lot of natural weapons. 2 fists, 2 elbows, 2 knees, 2 feet, and 1 head (not recommended). Can I make 9 unarmed combat attacks per round? (I'm trying to eat through my riposting opponent's interrupt actions to get a few turns of freebies.)

I wasn't actually directing it at you, more following up on your post. For the record, I think you should be able to use two-weapon style with unarmed combat. I just don't agree that hardliner gloves (1 pair) are one weapon.

So you not only think Hardliner Gloves counts as two weapons, but you think it is fine to use Unarmed Combat with the Two-Weapon Style maneuver? Well, it's your game, but I don't believe that should be canon (at least the latter part).

As for those that think you need a pair of Hardliners to be able to use them, what about if Bruce Campbell's Ash wanted to slip on one glove on the hand without the chainsaw. Would he not get any benefit when punching zombies?

It may not be, but I wasn't refering to RAW. Martial Arts deals with defending against and attacking multiple opponents. It seems to make sense to reflect this with the Two-Weapon Style "Maneuver".

Being serious again, I wouldn't allow people to get away with using gauntlets, shock gloves, or hardliner gloves with two-weapon style. If you use the unarmed combat skill to use a weapon, it doesn't fall under two-weapon style in my opinion.

From a logical perspective, unarmed combat can generally be considered to use both hands (as well as other body parts) by default.

From a game balance perspective, I don't want to see someone taking 10 points of boxing, 10 points of kempo, 5 points of kung fu, and 5 points of kickboxing, for +6 to their blocking, and then adding full defense on top of that. Plus, as you already pointed out, Fortune, it would let unarmed people use full defense all the time.

I would see no problem with someone using only one shock glove, hardliner glove, etc. So what if you can only purchase them in pairs? Nothing stopping you from wearing just one of them. I might consider something like a 1 die penalty for someone trying to get the benefit of the glove, since they are limiting themselves to one striking arm to do so.

You should still be able to do it, though, or your character will be like Michael Jackson or the Seattle Mariners... wearing a glove on one hand for no apparent reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That's pretty much my take on it, although I don't think I would do the penalty thing unless it was a very special case.

Again, by RAW you aren't able to, as they are a singular item. It'd be like wanting to buy/wear half of an armor jacket. It doesn't exist as far as RAW is concerned. Either you have "hardliner gloves" or you don't. There is no one glove per RAW.

As such, unless you buy and use two "hardliner gloves" you don't qualify for the two-weapon style maneuver. I wouldn't mind if they clear it up and said "only for the blades/clubs/etc skills" or "can't be used with unarmed combat".

I am a hardcore rules monger, but that is just taking it to far. That's like saying you cannot take a piss because it's not in the books. You really do not have any concept of role playing do you? You cannot have an armored jacket with it's sleeves cut off by the book, but because it fits the character, someone in the game I am currently in has exactly that.

I said per RAW you couldn't. Not that you couldn't ever possibly have such a thing and that you'll be struck down if you do.

And yet you still have not provided a quote that states anything like what you propose. There are rules that describe just how to use the stats of a single limb when only that one limb is used, which means it is indeed a viable option to choose to use only one arm when trying to accomplish something. I don't really care how you personally run your games, but you keep insisting that this is a case of 'Rules As Written', and there are no written rules concerning this in SR4.