Wars in 2070+ will be fought totally differently than today. There will be less needs for aircraft carriers, because bombers and jets can start far far behind in safe distance, and still arrive in short time thanks to spirit-enhanced speed modifiers.

And even more highly televised! With time-outs for commercials!

Go Speed Racer! Go Speed Racer! Go Speed Racer Goooo!!!

I'm sorry, that has exactly what to do with the topic at hand again?

I'm thinking it was a 'time-out for a commercial', as mentioned in the preceding post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"This Feed from Panzer 412 has been brought to you by the new Mitsuhama Motors Mach 5 Sports Car! Mach 5, the fastest production car currently on the market!"

Yeah, remember that the MiG-35 made a 6000 Kilometer journey in three hours, needing in-flight refueling once (remember that since this was a one way journey its range was effectively doubled so it only had to be refueled once while going at full speed most of the way). Using Movement from just a Force 4 spirit the MiG-35 would be able to make the 6000 kilometer journey in less than 45 minutes and have enough fuel left over to make the return trip on its own. At the point when ground based Russian planes can seriously threaten nuclear devastation in less than an hour to Sri Lanka and Ethiopia, the need for aircraft carriers of any kind is greatly attenuated.

-Frank

That's what you get when there's such things like the Movement Power. Speed Force-enhanced fighter jets will also have the advantage to being almost immune to anti-aerial measures, as by the time the enemy radar picked up the fighter/bomber, the airplane will by long have arrived at its target location and dropped its deadly payload, and then will be flying back to its homebase on the other side of the continent (or on another continent, if it needs to be).
When magic and technology combines in a way that makes many things simply obsolete...

Who says only the attacking/dropping aircraft can use the movement/speed enhancements, why not AA missiles and Defending aircraft. As for detection of incoming aircraft there is a very nice range of detection spells and design rules for same that could detect such incoming aircraft way before. Could be Ritual Detection spells so a group of mages can combine talents/magic ratings too.

WMS

Actually, when you're thinking about it, you wouldn't even need fighter/bombers anymore, because your massive destruction-bringing warhead could easily be started from very very far away in a safe underground base, and it would arrive very quickly at the target point. No need for transporting engines like airplanes, because thanks to the movement power, the missile could make it easily to the destination with low fuel.

As for using a tons of mages to casting ritual detection spells, well, it surely can and is done, but I doubt that it's so effective, because it's still the machine data that the Anti-Air missiles need to find and hit the incoming aircraft/missiles. And so far, you can't translate magical/mystical knowledge of an approaching flying object into useful computer data. Being on the defensive in 2070+ isn't going to be helpful at all.

You don't have to make it complicated with strange ritual castings and metatechniques, however. Just using the Speed Force is enough to radically change warfare in the near future-scenario that is the world of Shadowrun. No need for carriers, perhaps not even for airfighters/bombers anymore.
The game designers should seriously think about the implication of most simple magic tricks on the world of Shadowrun, be it civilian, or militarian.

In Shadowrun, offense trumps defense. Your only effective means to protect yourself in Shadowrun is to apply stealth and to never be discovered at all. Conventional defensive techniques are made obsolete.

A good reason to simply ban the movement power - or nerf it severly.

Yup, as movement is written Frank's version of the world is how it should be. However the rest of the design team seems to have no ability to think out the implications of the game world. For example, the whole opening of SM would need to be completely rewritten, as magic is constantly involved in people's lives. They obviously have no plans to go there. Hence the game world and the mechanics don't mesh.

As it's easier to rewrite a power then the entire world, nerf makes a whole lot of sense.

Granted, movement enhanced vehicles are often so fast that they are in and out before defenses could possibly be scrambled. Of course, Shadowrun also has space based weaponry, from which no amount of fighter scrambling is going to do you a damn bit of good.

It's over 60 years in the future, and lots of military techniques are obsolete. To put things in perspective, the game is set in 2071. It is currently 2008. 63 years ago from now it was May of 1945. Can you think of a major military advance/event that came between then and now that changed military strategy almost beyond recognition? Perhaps 3 months after then?

-Frank

Yea, let's go back to the SR3 version because that was so much less broken. Oh wait. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

For my groups I am fine with movement as it is. It allows me to have HTRTs with a low response time, fast airships and my players won't cry because I nerfed something for reasons they don't come in contact with anyway.

I do not use large military assets ie carriers et al, in any of my games. Due in part the SR iterations of rules do not scale up well or integrate well with small arms fire that most shadowrunners use. Does that mean it could not be done, *shrugs* yes but to me it would not be worth the gain for all that effort.

WMS

Yeah, for some reason, I can't see a Colt L36 doing much to an Aircraft Carrier, small or large. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

What self respectin' 'Runner uses an L36 for more than a can opener? A self-respectin' runner uses a Predator or Ingram Smartgun...with APDS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Not that it will have any more impact on an aircraft carrier, but we are talking about respect here. Next, you'll be havin' 'em dress up in some frilly corp suit instead of their kevlar t-shirt with "Frag 'Em all and Let God Sort 'Em Out" stenciled on the front and a genuine imatation fake naugahyde armored longcoat.

Vlad

Well, one of my characters has one for his Housecoat while sipping at his 12-year old Irish Whiskey.

IRISH Whiskey, not Tir na nOg!

EU Regulations, you can't call anything Irish Whiskey any more. Same reason you can't call things Port unless it's made in Portugal or Champagne unless it's made in France.

You'd have to have a label that said:

IRISH styleWHISKEY

Otherwise the corporate court would shut you down.

-Frank

That's some seriously old drek. Not like that good, fresh synthahol most of my runner's partake. You sure that guy ain't a dandyline eater? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And now, I shall refrain from anymore off-topic chit-chat. Sorry, fellow DS'ers. Back to your regularly scheduled big boat toys.

Vlad

Air superiority alone doesn't win a war. It isn't enough to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and here the lamentations of the women. You actually have to control the land afterwards. You can't occupy from across an ocean. It isn't possible to summon enough spirits to make that viable. You need ground troops and supporting those troops means having aircraft that are capable of killing a specific target with extreme precision at a moment's notice and that can safely extract them at a moment's notice. This means near constant patrols by armed mini-blimps and rotodrones in addition to choppers and thunderbirds based very in or near the battlefield.

Yes, that's known. But we're discussing the necessity of carriers in Shadowrun, what with all that jazz that magic brings with it, especially the not really thought out spirit power Movement.

Actually haven't we all agreed that there are probably like 3 super carriers left in 2070 and there aren't really any plans to build more?


i was just taking offense at the idea that super carrier were obsolete as of this morning.

You're very well allowed to take offense at it. Still, with the uber-mighty Movement Power, there really wouldn't be need for any carrier, safe for ones that were built dozens of years ago, IF the movement power is to be taken at face falue. It's not like magical effects and how they work haven't been retconned several times in Shadowrun, however. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
It's only a matter of time till SR 5 will come out, with new rules how some magical effects work. Perhaps by then, Movement will have been nerfed to only work for like force=seconds or so once per day, or something like that. Then, carriers might once again be justified for the setting of Shadowrun.

I meant obsolete as of this morning 12MAY08 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)