It came up in my last game that a magician wanted to cast lightening bolt (indirect) at a drone he couldn't see, but his spirit could. As a seat o my pants ruling I use indirect fire rules from Arsenal. The spirit made a 2xF test add hits to the spell casting roll which took a -6 penalty. Does this sound valid and vaguely balance?

Also Imagine a magician is 5 meters away from an ally, and there is someone on each side of the ally. Can a magician cast a direct AoE targeted at a point in space down the ally and hit the guards because the magician has LoS on the targeting point in space and the victims? or Does this not work people there is no LoS/LoE from the point in space and the victims.

It doesn't work for any Direct combat spells, no. The alley blocks line-of-sight; so even though it's an area-of-effect spell, it won't touch them. An Indirect spell, such as Fireball or Ball Lightning, works just fine.

I think I failed to communicate the scene I was imagining. The mage does have LOS on the victims, there just isn't LOS from the target in space to the victims. I was thinking of a something like this

An ID spell would no effect no effect unless it could blow throw the buildings. The D spell is the interesting question.

Sorry about that.

Anyway, to answer your question as best I can: I believe that spells don't radiate out from an epicenter, it blankets an area evenly. That's why the Force of indirect spells doesn't taper off like a grenade does, nor do they benefit from Chunky Salsa rules. So, it doesn't matter if the mage used a direct or indirect spell, both targets are equally fried.

>So, it doesn't matter if the mage used a direct or indirect spell, both targets are equally fried.

I really thought that indirect spells did radiate, because you can hit people around corners if you can see the spot you are targeting.

actually, you can hit them around the corner, if you can see a spot that would put them in the radius, if it's an ie combat spell. There is some debate about whether the spell radiates from a point like a grenade or if it fills the entire area with the elemental effect. if it does fill the entire area, think about how your mage could cast a fireball at the top of a car and fry everyone inside. makes those elemental spells that much more valuable. The flip side is that the RAW definitely states that for things like firehose and LB you have to go through any barriers between you and the target.

Here's the thing: if Indirect spells did radiate outward, their effect should drop off as you reach the outside. Additionally, Blast spells should be able to be channeled. In other words, it should work like a grenade.

Technically, the spell should blanket through walls, but I'd just give the people under cover a significant bonus to armor/defense rolls. Effect-wise it'd be like waving your fingertip through a candleflame: you'd feel a quick bit of heat, but wouldn't be hurt by it.

But if Indirect spells instantaneously blanket an area, why do defenders get a dodge test? For that matter, why do defenders get the benifit of armor, since the fireball would be manifesting on both the inside and outside of a person's armor?

Indirect AE spells shoot out from the point the caster centers them on I thought.

That's the way I've always interpreted it. So, my ruling would be that in the original poster's scenario both targets would be protected by the corners of the building from the blast, which radiates out from the designated target point in the middle of the alley. The ability to see the targets doesn't impact whether they're affected.

I've never heard any canon ruling on whether indirect spells have a blast that expands from the center, or if they just blanket an area evenly. Either ruling creates some apparent inconsistencies.

Cinematically the mage literally throwing balls of fire at his targets is most impressive, but that's just fluff.

Given the situation suggested above I'd have the fireball hit both targets, ignoring any channelling effects, simply saying that the spell effects extend out to fill the area of effect unless blocked by a solid barrier. Regarding the car, the spell would damage the car roof, but passengers would gain the armour value of the roof to resist damage, unless they had the windows down, in which case they would not.

It's not perfect, but how often is this kind of circumstance going to occur? I'm prepared to GM fiat it when it does to keep the action moving.

IE spells are settled in my book. The effect radiates. I see the validity of the no falloff argument, but that can be explained as a book-keeping simplification. Radiation is needed to make dodging, cover, and armor work.

I love to hear from people, but this isn't what I was asking about originally. I was asking about a Direct AoE spell, specifically that work horse we all love/hate Stun Ball.

Further re-rerailment, any thoughts on casting an indirect spell at something your spirit located for you that you can't see?

I reckon a stunball would hit both targets. Think of it as laying down a template and everything the mage can see in that area is affected.

I wouldn't allow a spirit to act as a spotter for something the mage can't see.

Fuel-Air bombs blanket an area evenly, and those could be dodged. And there's still the no channeling argument to deal with. Basically, since rules for grenades already exist-- and SR4 isn't shy about recycling rules rather or not they work-- why didn't they just reuse those? Why'd they use an artifact system that makes no sense?

Cool, Template+LoS fill a good way to think about that.

About the targeting via spirit don't you think there should be some roll or an indirect spell? Specifically the magician was in a small room with a stealth drone that had fired at them. The magician failed to spot the drone on a physical while his spirit could plainly see the drone as it was the only thing moving (and got 5 hits on an astral perception test). I feel like with the link there should be some kind of roll allowed. Or am I being to generous?

I'm realizing now that the spirit could have just manifested on top of the drone, and let the P spell pass right through it.