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Chrysalis
post May 17 2008, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE
Herrhausen fell victim to a sophisticated roadside bomb shortly after leaving his home in Bad Homburg on 30 November 1989. He was being chauffeured to work in his armoured Mercedes-Benz, with bodyguards in both a lead vehicle and another following behind. The bomb had been hidden in a saddle bag on a bicycle next to the road that the assassins knew Herrhausen would be traveling in his three-car convoy. In the bag was a 20 kg bomb that was detonated when Herrhausen's car interrupted a beam of infrared light as it passed the bicycle. The bomb and its triggering mechanism were quite sophisticated. The bomb targeted the most vulnerable area of Herrhausen's car—the door where he was sitting—and required split-second timing to overcome the car's special armour plating. The bomb utilized a Misznay-Schardin mechanism. A copper plate, placed between the explosive and the target, was deformed and projected by the force of the explosion. It is unlikely that this improvised explosive device had the precise engineering required to form the liner into a more effective slug or "carrot" shape (as in a shaped charge or an EFP)[citation needed] but in any case, the detonation resulted in a mass of copper being projected toward the car at a speed of nearly two kilometers per second, effectively penetrating the armoured Mercedes. Herrhausen's legs were severed and he bled to death.

No one has ever been charged with the murder. For a long time, the German federal prosecutor office listed Andrea Klump and Christoph Seidler of the Red Army Faction as the only suspects.

[...]

The award-winning German documentary movie of 2001 Black Box Germany retells the lives and deaths of Alfred Herrhausen and Wolfgang Grams, a radical activist (who was a major suspect in the attack on Herrhausen).


citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen
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hobgoblin
post May 17 2008, 04:17 PM
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hmm, a laser beam...

unless someone was close by and armed it after the first car had passed, that thing would have been fairly random...
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Chrysalis
post May 17 2008, 04:48 PM
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There was a hill where supposedly it was armed. It was all very sophisticated for the Red Army Faction.
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Zak
post May 17 2008, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 17 2008, 11:48 AM) *
There was a hill where supposedly it was armed. It was all very sophisticated for the Red Army Faction.


There is still an unending debate whether or not they actually did it. Herrhausen was not the most popular person in his circles. But I will probably get flamed for even bringing this up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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kanislatrans
post May 17 2008, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 17 2008, 02:57 AM) *
the damage for those 18 kilos would be closer to 64P then 260P...

square root can be a bitch sometimes...



Math never was my strong point. I kinda lost interest when the teacher started talking about negative numbers. as in " if i have 5 apples and i sell you 10 apples". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) to me that just means i ripped you off (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

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Kyoto Kid
post May 17 2008, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (kanislatrans @ May 17 2008, 02:27 PM) *
Math never was my strong point. I kinda lost interest when the teacher started talking about negative numbers. as in " if i have 5 apples and i sell you 10 apples". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) to me that just means i ripped you off (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Hooray for New Math,
New-hoo-hoo Math,
It won't do you a bit of good to review math.
It's so simple,
So very simple,
That only a child can do it!

--Tom Lerher. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Siege
post May 17 2008, 11:21 PM
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Don't forget - Shadowrun has introduced us to the wonderful world of C-12.

For those of you who don't get it, check out Youtube for video of what just a little bit of C-4 can do.

-Siege
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DocTaotsu
post May 18 2008, 12:30 AM
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I would like to take this time to all inform you of some very important information.

C-4 is very toxic. Don't eat it.

Seriously, it's embarassing when Explosive Ordinance Disposal has to come to the hospital. Seriously.
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Emperor Tippy
post May 18 2008, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ May 17 2008, 07:30 PM) *
I would like to take this time to all inform you of some very important information.

C-4 is very toxic. Don't eat it.

Seriously, it's embarassing when Explosive Ordinance Disposal has to come to the hospital. Seriously.


...
Do I even want to know?
...
Yeah I do.

Why did somebody decide that C-4 was a good snack?
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DocTaotsu
post May 18 2008, 12:42 AM
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Alcohol+Marines(Any Military Service Member Really)=Failure Cascade.

A bunch of Recon guys got into a drunken argument over wether or not C-4 was toxic. Hiliarty ensued.
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Siege
post May 18 2008, 12:42 AM
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Hell, some idiot was chewing on a blasting cap.

For those of you who don't know, blasting caps are smaller explosives designed to trigger larger explosives.

The resulting blast didn't kill him, but the only way you could tell the slab of meat had once been a face was the one blue eye left open and working.

-Siege
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Siege
post May 18 2008, 12:45 AM
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QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ May 18 2008, 01:42 AM) *
Alcohol+Marines=Failure Cascade.

A bunch of Recon guys got into a drunken argument over wether or not C-4 was toxic. Hiliarty ensued.


I just knew alcohol had to be involved.

I'd pay good money to hear a tape of that phone call.

Hospital: "We need an EOD team here ASAP."
EOD: "What's the emergency?"
Hospital: "A patient got drunk and ate C-4."
EOD: "..."

-Siege
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DocTaotsu
post May 18 2008, 12:46 AM
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It did however allow you to visualize what a persons sinus cavities look like. That's pretty cool.

They make tools for crimping blasting caps, there is a very solid reason you shouldn't crimp blast caps with your mouth.

Well you can but you're going to end up on Rotten.com and medical personnel the world over are going to go "Dude! You totally have to check out what this dumbass just did!"
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Siege
post May 18 2008, 12:53 AM
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Honestly, you couldn't make out anything from the photo - 3/4 of his face was gone. You could identify the flaps skin surrounding the mass of red and one blue eye looking at the camera.

The funny part? The guy is still conscious - wound shock is a funny thing.

-Siege
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DocTaotsu
post May 18 2008, 01:01 AM
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oh no, I'm almost certain that you can see the sinus cavities. It's all very interesting to see how his face got flayed open but so cleanly. If I recall correctly you can also see most or all of his tongue, something I find intensely amusing given what he did to blow his face off.

Yeah he's definitely still alive, he's holding himself up at least partially and you can just see the "This has to be a really bad dream" look in his eye/eyes. (The picture I'm thinking of he still had both his eyes... i think, it's been awhile).
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Siege
post May 18 2008, 01:06 AM
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Or, more than one idiot has seen fit to try the same stunt.

I really, really hate to think there might be two different photos of the same mistake out there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

-Siege
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hyzmarca
post May 18 2008, 01:07 AM
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So, what does C-4 decompose into when exposed to digestive acid?
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DocTaotsu
post May 18 2008, 01:26 AM
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I have no idea, I just know that it made they extremely ill.

Of course the fact that they didn't come in right away didn't help. I'm fairly certain they tried to gut it out for a few hours before they started vomiting and drooling on themselves. Additionally it takes about 30 minutes to get from the base where they pulled this stunt off to the hospital so that's plenty of time for begin the process of digestion.

Yum.

Hmm... MSDS safety sheets.

http://www.omniexplosives.com/PDF/C4%20MSDS.pdf
This says it gives off toxic nitrogen oxides.

http://www.ocsresponds.com/ref/msds/msds-rdx.pdf
RDX which, if I understand correctly, is the boom boom part of plastic explosves is also not very healthy for you. It looks like it messes up your central nervous system pretty bad, which is about in line with what I heard.
I'd also like to draw your attention to section about 3/4 of the way down the page. "First Aid": Ingestion: Not a likely route of exposure.

Way to go from the big win guys...
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hyzmarca
post May 18 2008, 01:41 AM
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Nitrogen Oxides are a product of explosion. The sheet doesn't give any clue as to what it produces if it reacts with an acid.

Edit: One source I found suggests that a reaction between HCl and RDX produces Nitrite.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18331858
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Sir_Psycho
post May 18 2008, 02:18 AM
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My favourite plastic explosive trivia is the famous vietnam tales of soldiers using C4 for cooking fires. C4 is incredibly stable, and will not explode when exposed to fire. However, what can detonate C4 is high pressure and high heat.

So while there are stories of Marines lighting their c4 on fire to cook with were pretty safe. The story of the marine who tried to stamp the fire out ended considerably less amiably.
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kzt
post May 18 2008, 02:21 AM
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QUOTE (Zak @ May 17 2008, 11:18 AM) *
There is still an unending debate whether or not they actually did it. Herrhausen was not the most popular person in his circles. But I will probably get flamed for even bringing this up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Current thinking it that it was done by a Stasi commando team, called AGM/S, not the RAF. They had the expertise to do the kind of precise planning and explosives design needed.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...7-23850,00.html
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DocTaotsu
post May 18 2008, 02:41 AM
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Well the second sheet indicates that it is "Incompatible" with acids and the human and animal studies indicate that ingestion renders it into a toxic chemical that effects the central nervous system. I have a feeling that RDX is inherently toxic and that stomach acid doesn't transform it, merely breaks it down small enough to be absorbed by the body (your stomach and intestines being the ideal place for that). Granted that's all conjecture since I don't have access to the scholarly works I turned up.

This is an interesting article about poisoning that occured in Kosovo. It also mentions that lethal doses were established in rats by using a 4% solution which, if it was injected, would be a pretty firm indicator that RDX by itself causes problems.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=1279680
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Sir_Psycho
post May 18 2008, 03:18 AM
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Relative to the current discussion, word is that some soldiers would ingest small amounts of C4 to get sick leave. Although after a while CO's started to recognize the trick and punish the soldier, or even keep him on, despite the ill-health.
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DocTaotsu
post May 18 2008, 03:28 AM
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Well intentionally hurting yourself is punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice so I'm not all surprised that CO's punished them for being retards. Keeping someone from recieving timely medical care is a serious offense so I'd think most officers would be reluctant to deprive them of care.

Besides, you can recieve all the care you need, in the brig, or under restriction.
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hyzmarca
post May 18 2008, 04:10 AM
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QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ May 17 2008, 09:41 PM) *
Well the second sheet indicates that it is "Incompatible" with acids and the human and animal studies indicate that ingestion renders it into a toxic chemical that effects the central nervous system. I have a feeling that RDX is inherently toxic and that stomach acid doesn't transform it, merely breaks it down small enough to be absorbed by the body (your stomach and intestines being the ideal place for that). Granted that's all conjecture since I don't have access to the scholarly works I turned up.

This is an interesting article about poisoning that occured in Kosovo. It also mentions that lethal doses were established in rats by using a 4% solution which, if it was injected, would be a pretty firm indicator that RDX by itself causes problems.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=1279680


"Incompatibility" in the chemical sense means that the two produce a very dangerous chemical reaction when combined and must be controlled with great care if used together. This could either be due to a highly violent reaction or highly toxic product, particularly toxic gases.

RDX is a ring of three nitrogen atoms connected by three CH2 (methylene) groups with each nitrogen possessing a N02- ion (nitrite) with a positively charged Nitrogen atom.

http://www.3dchem.com/moremolecules.asp?ID...rname=cyclonite

According to the article I linked to earlier, hydrochloric acid (stomach acid) reduces (adds an electron to) the nitrite ion. This reduction is most likely to occur on the N+, which would probably cause the entire group to break away from the ring.
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