Actually, there was a suggestion in the game I ran recently to start searching a Tenement where a Rave was going on, room-for-room, for the guy lobbing explosives at the group.

I described what they saw... Some with invitations to join in.

And a blow-up, Troll-Sized Sheep.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry442291

sonic rifles, paintball guns loaded with high powered acid, nano/bio/chemical weaponry, mana spells.

oh gawd hyz, you just had to bring that old thread up didn't you... I had forgotten about that one, and it's hilarious reading some of the old stuff. I had forgotten I had posted to some of those threads. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I for one believe that thread necromancy is mandatory.

Was this erattaed?
As far as I can subdual damage has to go through full impact...

Thanks for all the responses guys

Thankfully, the player is a pretty decent sort, and whilst he's made the troll as solid as possible, he isn't an idiot about it. He just has started coming up with some fairly unbelievable tactics (like dropping grenades at his feet)

btw, for those who mentioned limitations to the armour he is wearing - all he was wearing was a standard armoured jacket (8/6) and a riot shield (+2/+6)

The rest of his dice come from his maxed out augmented body, and +armour/+DP for dmg resistance tests cyberware. If he was attacked naked and in the shower, he'd still be rolling around 20 dice to resist dmg.

The next part of the campaign i've written for them will involve dealing with Toxic shamans and organ leggers, since they've already tracked part of the trail to the ghouls that the organ leggers have a relationship with. I'm hoping that the use of toxic spirits, mentally damaged shamans and individuals that will look at the troll as a supermarket for cyberware/bioware might provide an interesting challenge, both physically and intellectually.

I think part of the problem was that the group are playing a high powered game, the troll character made a high powered character whilst the other 2 runners went for characters with a wider array of skills (drone rigger and voodoo shaman) and thus seem to pale in comparison when stacked next to the troll. (the drone rigger also doubles as the face)

However, I've started introducing the voodoo shaman to some of the options available to her, and she's started to up her game a bit, to be more in-line with the troll. The Drone rigger has also started to undergo some personal changes. The character has always fought from behind drones and he's recently found himself in fights personally, which is scaring the crap out of him, so he's turning to drugs to give him an edge, of course, the drugs he's been using have had an effect on his personality in a fight, which the other team members are starting to notice (the inexperienced Japanese elf rigger suddenly went nuts with a Remington Roomsweeper, being scared out of his wits fighting ghouls and then dropping some drugs caused an over-reaction to his flight or fight response.)

I'm hoping by educating the other two runners into the options available to them, i can bring them up to the trolls level and start generating challenges that the whole team can be a part of (cos realistically, the fight with the ghouls could have been soloed by the troll)

There's no errata for subdual, as far as I know. My idea was not a way to kill or even cause any damage at all to the troll. More like it's an idea to keep the troll out of the action while the rest of the team is attacked. It's a way of telling the troll, "You may be nearly invincible, but that doesn't mean you are useful."



Do the other characters really need to be as super as the troll in combat for the group to have fun? In my experience so far, each character should have a specialty, and thus will be not so useful sometimes, and very useful at other times. In my group, the team's technomancer, for example, is next to useless in combat. But, in the Matrix, no one else comes remotely close. Should the technomancer in my group start beefing up for physical combat to match the team's street sam? I don't think so, since that defeats the point of each character. Same with your group.

Is there really a need to make them all equal in the same situations? As long as you give each of them a moment to shine, that should be good enough.

Meh. I had a similar problem in a game recently, not SR though. One character was the strongest, toughest and smartest in the group. He also had the most extrovert player, so he dominated all the social meetings too, despite not really having the skills on paper. I can't blame him alone, as the other players sat back and let him dominate play. I did try to encourage the other players to beef their characters up in their respective roles, but it didn't work so well.

Now I'm running SR, and he plays the group's Face, problem solved.

That's not an issue with the characters or the game situations, though. That's a problem with the players--if you call it a problem.

Samba's issue with combat is only an issue if combat is a primary focus of the game. If combat is only an occasional event, then this should not be a problem at all.

It sounds like things are pretty well stated for how to deal with it, but I think most of you are forgetting the best tactic at all: Traps. A simple super deep pitfall will make for a long, tough night for the troll. For extra fun, have the trap also dump something (molten metal works wonders (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ) on top of him. No more uber troll problems! ^_^

You realize that you are talking str+net hits on opposed test > target's body attribute, which I believe was stated as being maxed out (15-16).
Its quite the grappler that can come out with that 16-17 str+net hits after an opposed strength +unarmed test with a troll. Right up there with time travel and teleportation if you ask me. Unless it was an equally twinked out troll buff strength grapple monkey, which is more so supporting the uncontrollable giant troll problem then solving it.
So say your sorry and we can all forget this ever happened... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The most maxed out body (without resorting to adept improved attribute or pumping drugs like a looney) would be 13 (10 for troll, +2 for exeptional and optimization, +1 for sypratheroid gland), not 15-16...
Not a very big difference, unless I'm wrong once more... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So you're not going to bring out the team of Lone Star Officers Goodbody, Fragmore, Darling, and Howe? I'm disappointed.

I'm going to agree somewhat with Ranger. The troll is the character who gets hit. That should be his role on the team. It is a common MMORPG role. You always need someone who can draw fire and take hits for the team. Usually, in Shadowrun, the people who draw fire and take hits for your team are called hostages. But, a troll tank can do just as well. Obviously, the troll doesn't play much of a role outside of combat. It is difficult to do so when heavily specialized.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)
Maxed out usually means maxed out. I.E. resorting to 'crazy things'
There are plenty ways to raise your body to the augmented maximum for purposes of taking damage. Base 10? Okay... 4 levels of Bone Density and a Suprathyroid Glad gets you to 15 without much of a fuss. Do all that gene-therapy/quality business and you could reach 17, though it would cost you some of your ever danky Bps.

I'm done now.

Okay, look at my quote of me, then look at your quote of me, see my calculations missing?
Also, Bone density doesn't deal with augmented maximums, if you have bod 6 and aug max 9, you can still roll all 4 dice of bone density 4...
The only thing that actually increases body is the gland, the adept power, a spell and drugs to my knowledge...
So without cutting out my proof and asking for it, why don't you prove it is possible?

Theres a number of items that give +dice for dmg resistance tests without increasing the base body (like bone lacing). Add in things like orthoskin, double elastin and a couple of other modifications you can very easily roll more than 20 dice for resisting dmg even caught naked.



It would be a little unrealistic to do so, they are currently deep inside the Kowloon Walled City looking for a missing person. Last time i checked, Lone star just don't go into the walled city

I think its an interesting thing to try and work out, is it actually possible to hit the augmented maximum of 15 body (not body for dmg resistance tests, or body for toxin resistance tests) using just stuff available to a street sammy (no spells, no adept powers).

I've tried with what i have available at work, and i get the same result - 13, using Exceptional attribute, optimisation and a superthyroid.

Also, are combat drugs limited to the augmented maximum too?

(p.s. i know my guy uses things like titanium bone lacing to give +3 to body for damage resistance tests)

why the hell did they even change that? if natural max is 10, then how is a troll supposed to ever hit the cap of 15 body without being an adept or taking drugs like crazy or having some mage beef him up some more, which is incredible unlikely as i believe the target for the mage to be the base attribute?
in SR3 the numbers were rounded up and you still got to the limit in character generation if you really wanted to . .
but if i am understanding this right then in SR4
Trolls get +4 to body, meaning natural 10, exceptional rises that one to 11, gen thingy to 12 and the gland to 13 . . but with the exceptional and gen thingy your maxed augmented body is actually 18 again 12+(12/2=6) . . and you are stuck at body 13 without magic or taking enough drugs to kill you . .
granted there's things that add Dice Pool Modificators to damage resistance tests, but no way to get the body higher than that?
even replacing most of the body with metal bits (limbs) only gices + boxes to damage track . . and because you have to up those stats per limb the average is more likely to get lowered with limbs too . .

Kowloon PD officers Hugnkiss, Onatopa, Goodman, and Hunt, then?

That lot aren't part of the PD, they are a triad hit squad masquerading as Hong Kong Police officers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Life is complicated in the walled city (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yeah, the police officer is called Tequila. But one of the member of the Triad hit squad is his brother.

You are assuming that the subdual expert of which I was speaking is not a troll.

Troll with natural Str 10, Muscle Replacement 4 or Muscle Augmentation 4, Suprathyroid Gland for +1 = 15 Augmented Strength. Matches the tank troll's 15 Augmented Body.

If you like, add in the +1 die for Subduing from Aikido, Wildcat, or Wrestling...or all three, since technically they all stack, for +3 more dice. Add in Subdual Combat specialization for Unarmed Combat for another 2 dice.

It's not that hard for a specialized wrestler troll to beat a specialized tank troll in subdual combat. Now, whether the wrestler will do any damage--who knows? But, again, my idea was more to just keep the tank from doing much of anything else.

I suppose, the only question here is, can the wrestler troll stop the tank troll from pulling the pin on a grenade and dropping it?

(btw, the tank troll is quite strong, he's not maxed out on strength, but i think he hits about 12-13 Strength)

Whenever one person makes an insanely physical combat monster with low mental stats, and the rest of the party are insanely mental technical/magical types with low physical stats, the obvious answer is to mind control the Troll into going on a HULK SMASH rampage and piledrivering his teammates until they figure out a way to stop him.

Or maybe I just did that in a Champions game last weekend, and thought it was a lot of fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)