as in: edge must be declared and spent when rolling for initiative at the start of the combat turn?

That's how I read it.

Did anyone ask if Riposte can be triggered while using Full Defense?

Sure. Why not?

Because using Full Defense is actively paying complete attention to defense, normally at the cost of any other (ie. offensive) actions. If the combination is allowed, pretty much everyone that possibly can will grab Riposte as soon as possible (if not at chargen itself) and then just stay on constant Full Defense.

That sucks! I don't like it! It is inane! It's way too powerful! And it won't work that way in my games!

It's pretty common in fencing, actually. And if you act before your opponent, you can /force/ them on the defensive. Of course, they can riposte you and then you can riposte them, etc., but eventually one of you will run out of actions - and considering that you're forcing the defender to take /two/ actions (Interrupt: Full Defense followed by Interrupt: Riposte attack) for your one, odds are actually in favor of the offensive opponent, all else being equal.

Shrug. I've done a little fencing, and I consider that a normal use of Defense. To me, Full Defense is just that ... doing everything in your power to avoid getting hit to the exclusion of everything else. It is a different thing to the normal back-and-forth, thrust-and-parry of fencing.

So, in other words, the only Maneuver that can borrow an Action from the following turn is Full Defense (and it's technically not a Maneuver, but uses the same basic mechanics). Is that about right?

No idea. Technically, they said you cannot borrow from the next combat turn. However, I think Full defense lasts until your next action, so the effect could carry over into the next combat turn.

Bah. This is why I prefer my Action Point system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

*cradles his PipBoy lovingly*

Full Defense specifically outlines how you can 'borrow' an Action from the next turn if you have none available in the current turn. But as I said, it is technically not a Maneuver.

In any case, they clearly stated the "old master borrowing 96 actions" is not possible.

So let me get this straight.

-An "interrupt action" basically burns your next action in your next action phase
-Maneuvers like Riposte and Finishing blow are both interrupts
-It is impossible to burn actions from the following combat turn, unless you are using the FULL DEFENSE option

THEREFORE

-It's impossible for any character with just a single initiative pass to ever perform maneuvers like Riposte or Finishing Move, correct?

I hope I'm wrong about this. Can someone please clarify?

According to what Fuchs reported from the chat, what you just wrote is correct, with the exception that if a 1 IP character uses Edge to gain an extra pass in the current turn, then he or she can use Riposte or Finishing Move.

Edit: The 1 IP character can also use these maneuvers if he or she gains more IPs from any other method, such as magic or drugs.

I'm against multiple IP's, but that sounds broken. You shouldn't have to be lucky to Riposte.

I'll continue with 1 action ahead for my games.

Well, I guess my take on it was totally and completely wrong...
In fact, pretty much everyone was wrong, by the looks of it...
I suspect my group will stick to our previous interpretation of the rules and call it a house rule though...
At least it settles the discussion finally...
Although in a very unsatisfying way IMO...

I'll just keep doing what we did so far - which is, not using the MA rules and all the interrupt stuff.

You have got to be kidding me. Am I the only one who thinks maneuvers that can ONLY be utilized by cybernetically/magically/chemically enhanced individuals are beyond retarded? The Dev's actually said that? That's batshit crazy.

I think it would make more sense to put a cap on the number of "interrupt actions" available per combat turn, after you've used up the remainder of your actions. That way, the 1 IP guy can still pull off things like FINISHING MOVE, or a RIPOSTE followed by a FINISHING MOVE. Set the cap to Available Actions + TWO interrupt actions per combat turn max. That way you can't borrow infinitely from future combat rounds. The 1 IP guy can do up to three interrupts in a single turn, the 2 IP guy can do four, the 3 IP guy can do 5, and the 4 IP can do 6. That would seem to be a fairly effective house rule that doesn't end up giving a MASSIVE advantage to those with more IPs.


Example:

Bob citizen gets jumped by two knife-wielding gang punks. What the gang punks don't know is that Bob is an Arnis de Mano instructor.

GP1 (gang punk 1) wins initiative and attacks with is first action
BC (Bob Citizen) uses an interrupt (and his one available action) to declare full defense (full parry), and easily deflects the attack
BC's turn comes up, but he used his action, so he has to wait
GP2 (gang punk 2) gets his turn, and tries to skewer bob on his shiv
BC users another interrupt action (one of the only two he has left) and performs an Arnisdor Disarm, doing damage to the punk and...
Since he did damage with a disarm, he can use his final interrupt to perform a finishing move on the punk.

Hehe...I thought interrupts being restricted to the current combat turn, made the most sense. Allowing the 4IP dude to act then interrupt 3 times and a 1 IP guy having to choose to wait then interrupt, or act now and boost his IPs later aligned with my understanding of the intent. I'm glad the Devs didn't screw up my logic on the topic:)

In a way it makes sense that only multiple IP people can use maneuvers like Finishing Move. After all, Finishing move lets you effectively do two strikes in the same time as one. That should take twice as long, unless you're twice as fast. And it's not like only people pumped up with cyber/drugs/magic can do it, even the unluckiest person in the world can still put in an Edge to do a Finishing Move. I'm not sure how canon it is, but I'd allow someone to decide to burn edge for another IP after making the attack for finishing move, or after defending the attack for riposte, i.e. gain another action and immediately use it on an interrupt.

There is definitely some satisfaction to eliminating the un-realism of someone interrupting 12 times and being unable to act for a whole minute after a flurry of action. As the devs have clarified it, nobody stands around with hands in pockets for longer than one turn.

I think limiting borrowing to the current Combat Turn also makes it more clear that whenever you take another action, whether it's an interrupt or not, your full defense ends. If you full defense and then Riposte, your full defense is over because you have acted by Riposting. But you should still get the full defense bonus, since you don't take any action until after you successfully defend the attack. This means that two handed mastery is pretty amazing because you can full defense with one weapon for free, and then riposte anyone who attacks you, sort of win-win. I think seeing sammies with Smartguns and katanas, like they always had in the art and never in actual gameplay, will be sweet.

Also, defense penalties reset each time you act, right? This means that high IP people will be much less affected by defense penalties. A 1 IP person might defend 5 attacks in a turn, and take a -4 on the last one, no matter when other people attack during the turn. But a 4 IP person could full defense for the entire turn by taking 4 full defenses, but each full defense is an action, and each action resets the penalty. So dodgers with pumped IPs get even more powerful.

Bah! I still think they should be unlimited ...

... except, of course for finishing Move.

... and no offensive Maneuvers triggered off Full Defense.

... and no Two Weapon Style for Unarmed Combat.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I still don't know what anyone finds complicated about two weapon style requiring two weapons, and not working when one fights using the "unarmed," (i.e. of arms, having none, thus being weaponless, having not the requisite 2 weapons, or even a single weapon, but in fact 0 weapons, a complete lack of weapons, weapons being somewhere, but not in your hands, where you can use them to fight) skill.

We've been through this though. It is because things like Hardliner Gloves are considered, or at least listed as 'weapons', and thus the wording of the Maneuver is such that it can be read to include their use.

I still don't get your complaints about Riposting off of Full Defense. Although not bad, it is not that powerful, and with any 'reasonable' limit on how many actions you can borrow, will not be a balance issue at all. It is also far from the most powerful Martial Arts combination. My personal favorite, because it is my preferred combat style in RL, is also easily the most powerful I have seen used in Shadowrun. Arnis De Mano + Disarm maneuver. Gets even worse when you add in Two-Weapon Style. You get free damage & a disarm every time you parry an attack, without using an interrupt - don't even need to make an attack on them, as you do with Riposte.

You're right. If Full Defense is considered to be cancelled as soon as the Riposte is performed, then it isn't as bad as I first thought. I still don't like the whole 'permanent Full Defense' offered by the Two Weapon Style Maneuver though.