A friend told me that apparently lots of people of that description actually go to Alaska to see if they can "make it" in the "wilderness", to the point that the locals expect them to show up in general.

Apparently one of them was excruciatingly dumb and died of exposure in the process, and his family released a book about it and tried to pass him off as some kind of hero when he was really just someone completely divorced from all grasp of practical reality.

Shadowrunners are poor not because of how much they are paid, but because we compulsively spend the majority of our net profits of runs on purchasing toys and favours to help us in our next run. Because of our obsession with getting that new set of wires, or that new power focus, or that prototype resonse chip, to give us the edge next time we step into the shadows, not to mention things like surgery, fake SINs, repairs etc. we actually end up with a fairly meagre amount of money to make rent, get fed, and have a little to shoot up our nostrils.

Most of my campaigns eventually bring the players into contact with some pretty important people, so inevitably they are somewhat higher powered in the end. Starting off in the streets making next to nothing my players rapidly become salvage masters, and when they have the opportunity they definitely secure the operational area so they can secure the trash. So the days of being poor don't last really long, however the cash crunch continues for a very long time. They inevitably wind up being asset rich, cash poor. You know here is Safehouse 2 with a full replacement set of gear, ammo, drones, the whole nine yards in case our primary is compromised, needless to say they like to go several deep. Then you have the occasional out of town jobs, well if its a major city you might as well make sure everything you could need is available. So by the end of a campaign they usually have multiple residences/caches spread across multiple cities, and countries a ton of spells, cyberware, bioware, and gene modifications, and next to no cash compared to their overall worth. So I would say Runners are always relatively cash poor.

Yeah, but lawyers aren't poor.

Especially Lawyers that defend Shadowrunners.

People have the same resentment/disdain for professional service firm staff in other fields, like consulting. Its quite funny.

More than what, though? A Shadowrunner? That's just a relative value...yes, they'll charge more than 'Runners, but their existence means that there's a ceiling on runner salaries, since at some point it becomes more cost efficient to tell the runners asking for 20k to go eff themselves, and use your own guys or some mercs.

That's my point exactly. Runners are hungry. The idea that a group of five well-trained dirtbags can basically write their own checks is ridiculous. The whole game is predicated on the idea that your Pistols 6, cybered-out gunbunny, despite being very awesome, is a small fish in a very big pond. Cyberpunk in general tends to feature highly competent characters who live in an alarming mix of ridiculous tech and soul crushing poverty. If a Shadowrunner wants to make "real" money, it's time for them to "grow up" and take a corp job. When you're out on the street, you're competing against every other dirtbag out there. Yes, it's quite possible that a bunch of glorified ex-gangers will bork up a complicated jobs, but considering how many Shadowruns are just feints for other black ops, or outright setups, or reasonably straightforward (on paper, at least) smash 'n grabs/kidnappings...the cheapies are probably enough for quite a few jobs. So you've got a bunch of guys who work cheap and have a rep they've artificially pumped up with low-paying milk runs...lots of them die, but by the process of elimination, that's still going to be quite a few guys...versus the "elite" 'Runners who think they're too good to work for less than what Red Samurai are paid, thus have far fewer jobs to their name, and are working jobs that are more complex and more likely to go haywire.

So as a Johnson, you've got a choice: uppity guys with a short resume, possibly from out of town because they're ducking heat from their last op, or some cheap local talent with a lengthy record (of fairly simplistic stuff, but still...)

I'm not saying that it's impossible to justify Runners making a mint on every run; but it does begin to strain credibility...after all, why wouldn't they just retire? I *am* saying that there are a ton of reasons why Shadowrunners who work regularly might just be scraping by instead of ballin' out of control.

Proposituon 1: Shadowrunners are not poor.
Fact 1: Shadowrunners demand payment commensurate with a high-risk occupation, payments that are high enough that base-level runners can cover their montly living expenses by only working several days a month.
Fact 2: Shadowrunners are almost universally 'outside the system' and would have difficulty getting 'straight' jobs.
Fact 2-A: The longer one is a Shadowrunner, the more likely one will run afoul of some brand of authority and aquire a criminal SIN, due simply to repeatedly breaking the law.
Fact 3: Those without SINs and/or Criminal SINs have difficulty holding decent jobs, as per game canon.

Ergo, Shadowrunners are not poor. If they stop running, they will become poor. QED.

Well, you've definitely got a good argument as to why Shadowrunners don't retire more often. But if you're working multiple runs per month to make ends meet and stay ahead of the curve (and thus alive)...I wouldn't call that being financially solvent. At best, the guys you're talking about are living paycheck to paycheck. They could easily be eating soy noodles a couple of nights a week.

Cutting your long post down for clarity.

First, we should establish that alot of runners are just some punks. If your group wants to play those, fine. Then skilllevels can be as high as you want, if you keep at the unprofessional punk they won't get proper payment.
But, if you move into a professional mindset, which some groups enjoy (you don't, that is fine) you will have to look at the perspective. A professional team with proper contacts will be able to pull off their own runs by doing B&E, dealing drugs, being assassins, whatever creative endevours to earn money in an illegal way. Sure, it is not easy (noone sane is claiming that!), but that is the challenge.

A million in cash (or credsticks) is not enough to retire once you tasted the good life and made some enemies. 10 millions? Maybe.
And as someone pointed out earlier, the game is expensive. To stay in business you have to make large investments. You won't be able to do that with 5k/month.

So the question is: Do you want to play punks who are in a downward spiral or a professional team doing high risk jobs? It is up to you really. Shadowrun can work for both approaches and most groups will be somewhere in between.

In one game (still SR3) I GM atm, my players are burning 1million+ each a year on just staying in business. My other group is shooting Devilrats to survive. It all comes down to what you and your players enjoy. But please do not try to tell me that the game world does not have a place for highly paid runners.

I'm not arguing that high-end runners wouldn't live on soykaf noodles one or two nights a week - hell, when you live on commission and contract work, you suffer the ups and downs of the market.

But it's also been pointed out that money may not be the sole motivator behind their running.

I wanted to address the feasibility of hiring local streetpunk talent versus "SEALTeamSix, Inc."

-Siege

Point one: seal team six is probably busy.

It was never my intent to tell anyone how to play their own game. And yes, if the runners are in business for themselves, smuggling, dealing drugs, or whatever...well, they're paying their own salary at that point. But as you point out, playing the game on that level is expensive, so we're basically talking about the difference between running a treadmill in a cheap apartment, and running a treadmill in a penthouse suite. Either way, the amount the characters are actually taking home isn't going to be that much, since it gets invested right back into shadowrunning.

I suppose the most realistic approach would be an ebb and flow, where you have periods of high-paying, fast-paced jobs that almost kill you at every turn, and slower periods where you're desperate for cash and take lower paying jobs just to make your car payments. These jobs, of course, also almost kill you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Point Two: Note I specified "SEALTeamSix, Inc." - as in a licensed, probably high-speed, high-priced merc company.

-Siege

I figure there is minimal crossover between what Combat Inc does and what shadowrunners do. Combat Inc is a licensed organisation that does above board stuff. You hire them, they have a whole bunch of above board equipment that they bring to the table in an above board way. Their tanks, helicopters, comm vehicles and equipment has co branded sponsoring organisation and combat inc logos, they drop combat inc propaganda leaflets, when captured they say they are with combat inc representing Ares and expect real treatment as POWs (at least as far as that goes in china). They don't do much (any?) illegal shit, because if they did someone might find out about it, and ask to have their license to own main battle tanks taken away from them. And seeing as concealing a battalion of armoured infantry under your shirt isn't really practicable, that would sink Combat Inc.

Shadowrunners don't have any of the same protection, have no affiliation or branding, but unlike combat INC you can hire them to do something that is actually illegal. Due to the different market niches they don't really interact with each other. Combat Inc is like consultants - you bring them in to do a specific mission, often integrated with your team. Shadowrunners are like auditors - you want them as far as possible away from your guys so they look like they are independent.