i can't believe people still mention realism in a discussion concerning magics . .
other question: would one be able to shapeshift critters into metahumans? or just into other critters?
PC: "i cast shapechange on the tiger!"
GM: "what do you want to turn the tiger into?"
PC: "A Pony!"

Silly is it not. But the entire concept of roleplaying is about the creation and maintainence of game world with its own consistant rules, that from a perspective is logical.
Magic has to make sense from within its own internal logic. Devil's in the detail and all that.

It is fun to sometime say magic can do anything! But it aint shadowrun.

All normal animals, plants, and even many which are the result of mana returning to the world are 'critters'. Humans/metahumans are just other examples of normal animals. There is no definition I'm aware of which would remove metahumanity from the animal kingdom, or place it in a seperate category which would exclude it from what I understand the 'critter' definition to be. Can you find a clear definition of critter in the BBB or any other 4th ed suplement which excluded metahumans, as the current one INCLUDES ghouls?


No it wouldn't the two are clearly defined, in terms of fuction, and are easily understood as seperate entities. Now you could make a focus which combined the two fuctions however.


Again, show me the rule which says metahuman /= critter
If I don't know its there I CAN NOT by definition willfully ignore it.

Your argument is, prove that metahuman does not mean critter. The obvious retort is, prove that it is the same.
This is a cyclical arguement.
My last word on the matter is in terms of description.
As such animal and (meta)human mean very different concepts in the manner of speech.
Critter is another word for animal. Ergo as descriptions go it has clear intent.

Yes, if I was to say "I'm an animal rights activist" you should assume I mean "animal" in the sense of cows, chickens, pigs, dogs, cat, fish, etc, and not Humans, Spongiozoa, and Protozoa. However if you were to read about a bacteria that would spread from any animal to any animal you should also assume that you could get it from your dog. It's always a matter of context. IMO in an RPG system it is valid to take a systematic approach and think of humans as a subset of animal, unless there is a game term (such as name-giver) that set them apart.

It seems all forms an animals are critter. Humans are in fact a kind of animal called primates, and as such until I'm told
metahuman =/ animal it will.


Ghoul = critter
Ghoul = metahuman + virus
so someone with a cold gets a whole new classification in the animal kingdom? that makes no sense

"Critter" is defined in relation to the player characters. It is analogous to the D&D "monster" Any NPC that isn't a member of a core playable race is a "critter" (AIs excepted).

maybe not, but in the SR World there are several strains of MMVV and several kinds of "Ghouls" too . .
the classification of SR is difficult to say the least, but for magic it is Meta-Human-Race) and "Everything-Else=Critter" . . i'd probably explain it with the mind of the magician . . i would only allow a totally racist psychotic probably toxic mage to view metahuman subraces as critters

I always though of "critter" as a game term, and meaningless to characters. It's fascinating think about it IC.

By RAW, Shapechange cannot turn someone into a Metahuman.




On the subject of what makes a critter paranormal, the book classifies them as awakened critters. Being awakened means you have a Magic attribute, and the single thing all the listed paracritters have in common is a Magic of at least 1.


EDIT: I just noticed that by RAW, you also cannot change into anything that has the same Body as you, or 1 point greater or less...

we can attribute that one to word-count i'd say . . it's probably meant to be of at least 2 points below and up to a maximum of 2 points above

Actually probably should say 'at most'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well, looks like you seem to have some good points.... guess I'll just have to tack 1 onto the drain attribute, and allow meta humans, or take one off the drain attribute and allow only metahumans. Either works I guess.

But now I ask the question, what happens if you cast a spell which changes you into a meta human, you get infected with HMVV cause the spells sustained with a focus or by someone else, and then change back? Are you still infected?

This is a caveat.

In this instance it admits to the truisms that, while almost all critters are non-human, that some non-zero percentage of critters are, technically, human and similarly humans are, technically, critters.

But it's not fun when one player character can use magic and the other can't, or magic evolves beyond a plot device and into a tool that anybody can use with proper training. Not to mention that I like Shadowrun in the sense that technology can beat magic in many ways, unlike some other RPGs.

So, dropping the range to touch and including (for flava) a requirement of a sample of the intended form (ie. Hair, blood, nail clipping, horn chip etc,) I present to you Specific Metahuman Form—Manipulation, Physical, Touch Range (both sample and target), Restricted Target (Voluntary), Sustained, with a Success Test. Drain is (F/2) [base] + 1 [physical] – 2 [touch range, instead of ShapeChange's LOS] – 1 [Restricted Target, Voluntary] + 0 [Sustained] + 0 [Phys Manipulation] +2 [Major Change] for a total drain of F/2. Even resisted the urge to twink with the additional -1 [Restricted Effect, requires sample]. I also dropped the 2 greater or lesser bit and nerfed the Phys Attribute adds by halfing them.


Specific Metahuman Form (Physical Manipulation)
Type: P Range: Touch Duration: S DV: F/2 Threshhold: 2
Specific Metahuman Form physically transforms a voluntary subject into a specific metahuman, though the subject retains their own mental attributes. A sample of the specific intended form is required, be it hair, nail clipping, saliva, horn chip, blood, skin sample, etc. Add 1 to the form's Base attribute Ratings for every 2 hits above Threshhold 2 that the caster generates. The target's Mental attributes remain unchanged.
This spell does not transform clothing and equipment. Magicians can still cast spells. The target's DNA, fingerprints, blood etc will test identical to that of the original metahuman. Attempts to imitate the original's voice receive a bonus equal to the net hits. Note that cyberware and bioware present in the original will not be replicated, regardless of success, though geneware may be, at the GM's discretion. At 2 successes, the duplication is close, but there are small differences in appearance noticeable to casual acquaintances. At 3 successes, only close acquaintances might notice. At 4 successes, the only differences are behavioral.

Enjoy! Now if only our campaign was an episodic drama with lots of downtime rather than a perpetually racing action movie! How the f*$(ing h%^ am i going to get 3 months of downtime to develop it? We've been playing once a week for over a year and game time has advanced less than 2 months.

I better get crackin' on it. At least i get a totem mod and a bound spirit mod to develop it. Pax,
stormcrow

PS. Alternately, one could limit the body to Target's +/- successes and drop the Threshhold 2.

Hmmm, same quotes, different spin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Could be interpreted according to your definitions as shapechange will allow you to turn into any of the metahumans, but not into a human.

Given that all of the various interpretations involve some breaking of common sense, from the RAW approach (Critter is a specific SR4 term! You can only shapechange into the Critters listed in the SR4 canon rules!) to the anything goes approach (Human = Animal = Critter, you can shapechange into a buff human and up your stats!), just pick the one you and your table are most comfortable with.

Am sorry what? You quote one line out of the entire post out of context, not on topic and making what point?
Are you trying to up your post count?

I'm actually just curious if any of the dev's out there who had a hand in the creation of this spell could tell us if the intent was to allow for you to change into metahuman or not.

Well, although not totally official, we can always look to the mock Runner's Companion preview, with the Dragons needing to use the Shapechange spell to appear in metahuman form. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Shhhhhhh,,,,

Don't bring that up again, we'll never hear the end of it.

does that even work?
if they make it like that, it will be the new ghoul as PC and ghouls as npc/critter issue . .

Your spine is part of what is magicaly effected to turn into critter meat, dork (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
The same magic could not target your cybernetic components without bypassing their inherent technological resistance first. Right? I'm not trying to inject non-awakened logic into the equation...

Are there any other opinions on tis leg of the thread?

So I'm totally working on my proof of concept guerrilla mage (ho ho ho) with shapeshift, physical mask and a HMG, adapted to be fireable via smartlink in a gyromount, which is I think the keystones of what you need, aside from some goggles so you can smartlink it up, and some armoured long johns in XXXXL

However, I need gorilla stats. Does anyone have any suggestions?