I really think Wendigo's are more related to serial killers or perhaps addicts.

Does the serial killer HAVE to kill people? Well no. Does he do it compulsively, without switching MO's so the cops can't connect the dots? Not really what they do.

Can an addict stop whenever he wants? Technically, yes. He could just walk away and go cold turkey. Will he? Evidence shows not terribly likely. Will he desperately be wanting a fix? Yeah.

I don't think canibals are so much a "favorite food" as like being a drug. We are talking about a magical virus that seriously screws up your DNA, gives you special powers, and makes perfectly ordinary individuals into serial killers who are ring leaders for cults.

Well, I concede that there is decent margin to interpret wendigoes' preference for cannibals both as an addiction or a preferred food. However, "preference" is not the word I'd use to describe an addiction or a compulsion akin to the one of a serial killer. And rules for addictions do exist in the RAW yet they were not used to create the wendigo template. So I have strong doubts about this interpretation.

Although, ultimately, it boils down to what you want to do with Infected characters. I reason from the viewpoint that from now on, wendigo ought to be seen as legitimate options for PC or recurring NPC, not as one-shot "cannon fodder" or "monster of the week" NPC. IMO the cannibal cult element is the main obstacle to make such a character concept believable and manageable, so the "favorite food" interpretation is the one to be favored, as it allows wendigo characters to set aside the cult stuff and manage their own feeding needs in a manner similar to the other sapient Infected.

Well I see no big change coming. In years of playing or telling SR stories, I remember to habe met only 1 metavariant (including npcs, though the one was played). In fact I've seen more concepts and campaigns using "beings" not optet for play by the rulebooks, than metavariants. Still that number hasn't been disturbingly high.

It all depends on the group. Catalyst can put out what they want, if your group doesn't want it it won't get played.

This is maybe the wisest thing said on this topic.

Which is why you choose your team members carefully. And no, wendigos aren't likely to be chosen.

Also, if your infected team member is worth the equivalent of two SR4 runs' pay (20K), why not taser it and sell it (dead) to the DF or Quebec? It Shadowrunners are such dog-eat-dog guys, that's something the wendigo should be worried about, and thus seek a means of controlling the runners. Easiest way for it to do this is to make them part of it's cannibal cult.


Personally, I think this is where house rules should be made for the few players interested in playing Infected who wouldn't turn them into the stupidity chars discussed above.


Click this, so next time you know what you write about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Sure, you can make the Infected decent characters if you somehow decide to magically make all their bad traits go away. I recommend we call the game from then on Shadows: The Masquerade. Now with more r-Factor than Vampire!

Seriously, such a change in the game world would be a very stupid case of retconning, propably the dumbest in almost 20 years of SR publications. I sincerely hope Ancient will do better, but ultimatly, it's Synner's decision.


No, but it will be discussed to great lengths. And it will make games at conventions all the more annoying to play (or run).

Yeah, maybe in Luxus-Run-Ville, Iowa, but in reality you don't get to be very picky, especially when concerning awakend support.

It will only be discussed if there are players in the group who want to play such a character. And if that's the case, then that's a good thing.
And at conventions, every SL is free to not allow optional rules such as these, and people can pick their games accordingly.

As Hermit pointed out before, there might not be a consensus on using those rules.
Which is a problem for the group that is usually not explained by "Catalyst put out that crapfest of a sourcebook and now formerly reasonable players have become spotlight-hugging goth munchkins".

The type of gamer we are discussing here manages to play every character in an embarassing and incredibly trite and unoriginal way, and will, in fact, undertake everything possible to turn the game into a one-man-show (or, more likely, a one-pubescent-and-obnixious-boy or one-mediocre-GF-show).

It might depend on the given rules, both written and unwritten, how he does it- by overacting a flaw hurtful to the other PCs, by insisting on introducing broken houserules to beef up his poorly build character, by producing a trite copy of some pop culture icon, by producing a build full of stupid "i win"-buttons or one that is only good for causing trouble.
RC might give him a new fad to strife for, but without it, he would just embarass you with his leather coat wearing, Neo-sunglasses sporting elven hitman.
Same difference.

In a functional group, a consensus on using the options in RC will be found.
Wether they are taken or not will depend on the group.
Wether the latter depends on balance issues, style or both will depend on the writeup presented in RC, but that's it.

I do have to wonder though, does allowing monsters make the world seem more gritty? More dangerous or serious? Or does it detract from that? I personally am not sure.

It's also interesting to note that, in SR1, something like 70% of PCs were humans, with the remaining being primarily elves and trolls. In SR2 it shifted to about 50/50. In SR3, I can't believe more than 20% of PCs are humans, but probably 85% are standard metahumans. Is SR4 going to reduce humans to an even smaller percentage, but now begin reducing the number of standard metahumans? In SR5, will the only human left be the zookeeper? Oh the humanity!

I do have to wonder though, does allowing monsters make the world seem more gritty? More dangerous or serious? Or does it detract from that? I personally am not sure.

It's also interesting to note that, in SR1, something like 70% of PCs were humans, with the remaining being primarily elves and trolls. In SR2 it shifted to about 50/50. In SR3, I can't believe more than 20% of PCs are humans, but probably 85% are standard metahumans. Is SR4 going to reduce humans to an even smaller percentage, but now begin reducing the number of standard metahumans? In SR5, will the only human left be the zookeeper? Oh the humanity!

Depends.
If we get wendigos and nosferatus who are not that much more sinister and monstrous than normal runners, or banshees who are not complete nutcases, it takes away from the grit, at least IMO.
Personally, i'd prefer to use these three in infected-themed campaigns, oneshots and as NPCs.
This would not necessitate to create a de-clawed, cuddly version of them.

On the other hand, having such miserable creatures as goblins, ghouls or dzoo-noo-quaas certainly adds to the grit- so much that it becomes to lowlife for a standard campaign.

We should view the options in RC as what they really are- options.
And in many, if not most cases, options for alternative campaigns.
Legwork-heavy run in an upper-class CAS campaign?
Looks like a bad place for a ghoul.
In one of the places to be featured in Feral Cities, on the other hand, this might be a completely different issue.


As far as vampires are concerned, they might work best if they don't add grit- see, when i play, moral qualms are usually suspended the same way they are in an average action movie (this is a fine consensus for any group that actually wants to use all those fancy big guns in the game, BTW).
As long as everyone agrees on "he's ill, he has no other choice but to suck one of the bad guys dry every couple of months" and leaves it at that, grit is nothing but mere scenery, as usual for this style of play.

If you want to go full noir, gory and hardboiled, a vampire in the group will increase the sense of depravity and moral disorientation among the PCs and probably add to the game.
Probably add just enough to the game to freak everyone out, i don't know.
This stuff can get fuckin' intense and, frankly, quite sick, which is why i usually stay away from it.

The vampirism aspect I could deal with - assuming his take is 'hey, I need to live, and that means someone else needs to die. So this whole 'moral ambiguity' drek I'll leave to the exinstentialists'. He'd just not think about it and go about the business of living. It would be the same as someone who can buy food only by stealing organs from living people. That's fine. It's when it becomes "I am special and have super powers!" that I begin to wonder. In CP2020, you had people who made themselves into rabbits or cats or whatever through cyberware. They struggled to become special and thereby became freaks, and that was okay, since it's an intentional selling of humanity for something some might consider a basic need. But these people are naturally special (well, some moreso than others. I like the example of the corp girl who got bitten but didn't get any magic powers), and being special isn't something they had to pay for.

i wonder, could a wendigo pass for a sasquatch if it dyed his fur?

Straw doesn't bleed, hermit, no mater how many times you hit it.

No one has suggested taking away their bad traits or their disadvantages. What people are suggesting is to not add absurdly moronic disadvantage on top of what is already canon.

A GM saying "You're a Wendigo, you have to turn your teammates into a secret society of cannibals" is like a GM saying "You're a Street Samurai, you have to commit seppuku."

How about a Wendigo social adept. Man, now I got an awesome NPC concept. My players will hate me.

I really think the most important part while making 'monsters' PCs is to keep them at what they were before. So, no difference between PC ghouls and NPC ghouls, or shifters like we had in previous versions of the game. That would be just lame.
We also should not make up some bullshit rules to keep them in check more than NPCs of the same kind are kept in check.


And seriously, if you encounter a wendigo (or any other nutjob) as part of your team at a con: frag him. Sure, the player might be pissed. But this isn't some fluffy bunny fantasy game. Getting shot is part of the game. Especially if you play someone who freaks out others.
Most of my chars would take out a wendigo on sight (given a reasonable chance to win). But the same is more or less true for Cyberzombies (less chance to win there though), technomancers and social dice pool monsters.

I disagree. Such discussions aren't fun. And that's my main intention when playing.


Not nescessarily. But that kind of gamer is magically drawn to vampires. I can already see the plucky goth/emo kids asking whether they could join an SR game, and how they never were interested in SR before it allowed vampire characters ... it's not withoput reason that almost every Mary Sue test gives MS points to any character concept that is a vampire of sorts.


Sure, which is propably why Wanderer suggests taking away the corruption to cannibalism thing that is at the core of the wendigo of legend. Dye him so he looks like a sasquatch, and your character won't have any problem, even moreso if the Wendigo initiates and learns aura masking. Yeah, that perfectly covers all the flaws in canon.


No. It's like a GM saying "you're a troll. Everyone escapes throught he air vents, but YOU DON'T".


In CP2020, you also had playable vampires.


Of course, playing nonsentients ceases to be fun fairly soon ....


Save for Pornomancers (where I see no reason ingame to kill them), I'd second that (it's reasonable ingame, at least for my one SR4 character who both heavily dislikes the infected and had a rather troubling arcology experience (played through Brainscan).

I wouldn't frag technos with any char, of course, simply because some chars may be oblivious to the fact they're Node Network 2.0 - but for the infected? Zero Tolerance.

Of course, this can very quickly end in even more arguments, and really, I don't play the game for arguing about characters.

I see..."That girl over there looks pretty- too pretty! Gotta be a pornomancer adept or something! Oh god, she's trying to talk to me! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! Phew, that was close..."

Oh, and you forgot to mention mind-controlling mages (they can control your mind- scary, huh?), stealth adepts (shoot them before they sneak up on you!) and juiced-up sams (friggin' killing machines- what if they've got cyberpsychosis? Better not take any risks!) as possible shoot-on-sight-targets.

Or any other concept that is dangerous enough to other people to remotely qualify as a worthwile teammember.

That's right. If they don't do it on their own, they aren't role-playing hard enough.

What legend ? Human legend typically in SR has got some basic fact right, but all the details wrong. The wendigo legend also tells that you can turn into, or be possess by, wendigo if you indulge in cannibalism, which is totally wrong, since wendigoism is a magical, viral disease which you cannot ever get if you lack the ork metatype and you are not infected with HMHVV. As hyzmarca has remarked, the wendigo has plenty of problems and disadvantages besides the cannibal cult which won't go away by removing this last bit. With the all-important difference that the other disadvantages are well-represented by specific flaws, whileas the cannibal cult is but a fluff description which may or may be correct. I just advocate removing it and it alone because I perceive it as incompatible with having thew character concept as a PC or recurring NPC. Pardon me, but I'm beginning to suspect you want to make the cannibal cult mandatory just because you don't want the character type around anyway and know the cannibal cult would make it unplayable. Which is rather intellectually dishonest. Don't buy RC, don't share the info of its existence with your gaming group, veto "exotic" PC if you are in the position to do so, but don't ask that they be burdened with a disadvantage which would make them unplayable. "You cannot play this in my story" is honest. "You can play him, but he must shoot himself in the foot every 24 hours" is dishonest.

And no, using a combination of mundane and magical disguise to cover one's Infected nature won't solve all the disadvantages of the wendigo (there's still the need of metahuman flesh a few times a week, and Essence once a month, and the painful allergy to sunlight, which disguise won't help in any way), but again I fail to see where the problem is. Using clever strategems to minimize the impact of one's inborn disadvantages seems to me correct RP of such a character, since it is what any NPC with half a brain would do if he wants to have any interaction with society at all. Or is your idea of correct playing a wendigo more like along the lines of wearing a placard "I'm wendigo. I eat the flesh of your children. Shoot me", like Bruce Willis in Die Hard III ???



Being bigger and stronger than any other metatype won't stop a troll from having associates, contacts, teammates, a place into runner society, a social life, and to be a PLAYABLE runner character type. Being compelled to turn associates into cannibals and future snacks will. Again, you don't want Infected PC, don't use them, and do your best to keep them away from your group. But don't be an hypocrite and grab pieces of fluff like dear life and tell they can be played as long as they eat all of their associates.



And GURPS, and Hero system, and Mutants and MAsterminds, and BESM, just to name a few. The vast majority of the RPG systems nowadays won't bat an eye at treating vampires as PC. So I sincerely find all this outrage at Infected PC in SR rather weird. You had a few annoying experience with the goth angsty emo WoD-fanboys ? So I did, and I share your pain, but that's a problem of the players, not of the character concept.



Again, that's ypur prerogative as a gamer, nobody is coming to put a gun on your head and force you to buy and use RC, but it is abusive to accuse those who choose to use RC character options to be munchkins and attention-whores, and it is hypocrite to state that such character options can only be used as long as they are played as utter and complete suicidal morons.

You mean as in 'you can get cyberware fangs and bite people'? Or genuine undead? Where was that?

edit: I ask because listing off "And GURPS, and Hero system, and Mutants and MAsterminds, and BESM, just to name a few" is a little unfair. GURPS, BESM and, I believe, Hero, are designed specifically to let anyone play a wide range of characters in a wide range of settings. M&M clearly features monsters, so that's expected. I don't know a lot of games set in a specifically dystopian setting which include vampires, except those where vampires dominate the game (like WoD).

Probaply in the WOD book for the game(and no i have no idea what the name of that book was)

all of those games are typical superhero/power/effects based games.

one can say that mutants and masterminds are the D20/true20 version of heros system.

First, the Infected in SR aren't "genuine undead" in the "supernaturally-animated corpse" sense, either. They are people with a chronic magically-active viral disease. Second, RC isn't going to let the Infected characters "dominate the game" by any means. They will remain but an handful of possible character types among almost a double dozen options possible. The Ordo Maximus is as much as they have come close to social domination, that is, not at all. Third, vampires don't dominate the setting in WoD, either. They have to share the spotlight, and the behind-the-curtain influence of mortal society, with another handful of equally-powerful and entrenched supernatural races. Fourth, SR is a rather unique mix of near-future sci-fi and urban fantasy which does not compare well to pure cyberpunk or to pure dystopian settings (which typically are of the post-apocalyptic variety and nothing like SR), but in its hybrid elements most closely resembles grim & gritty superheroistic settings (like the ones that may be done with M&M and Hero) and "anything goes" systems (like BESM and GURPS). Both options leave ample place to play vampires. CP2020 is not an appropriate comparison since it's a "pure" cyberpunk setting with no magical elements at all, the closest is the nanite-powered kinda-superhumans of Cybergenerations.

White Wolf magazine publish a CP2020/V:TM crossover supplement that has been floating around the internet for some time, but that extremely unofficial and uses WoD mechanics.