I choose to build my character in this order:

--Purchase attributes
--Choose metatype

By my reading, this would allow me to buy up attributes at the same cost as a human, then have the metatype increase various minimum attributes (and therefore the attributes themselves) later at no cost besides that of the metatype. This certainly appears to work if I buy qualities after abilities and create an Infected; does Dumpshock concur with my reading that it also works with metatype?

Also, what is Dumpshock's opinion on the game impact if it does?

Its 10BP per attribute whether its 1->2 as a human, or 5->6 as a troll (strength for example). Whats your point?

Edit: Dur, teach me to read the thread title.



No, as Max below me said, metatypes change your attribute costs, so, obviously you can't change your metatype after purchasing attributes without recalculating the costs.

Besides, how would you list that?

Body 1 -> 2 = 6 karma.
Troll for X karma. Now, did you just waste 6 karma because troll minimum is 5? Thats how I'd call it if you tried to cheese the system like that.

No it definedly doesn't work that way.
That part you quoted is more about the fact that there is no set order in witch you do a character, you can go back and forth with buying skills,atributes,qualities and recources.
But ofcource you have to choose your metatype before buying your atributes, becouse it affects the cost of those atributes or you can of cource recalculate the cost of your atributes when you decide to make the character an elf or what ever.

Not in karmagen.

I would have to disagree.

Since there is no cost for metatype under the karma-based gen system, you still have to buy the stats.

Since you have to buy stats after picking metatype anyway, there is no advantage to buy human stats, become orc, then buy orc stats.

The supposed advantage is this:
Human buys strength 2 for 6 karma (1->2).

Then chooses to be troll, troll has minimum 5 strength. He claims he now would get 6 strength. (18 karma usually).

I say he bought strength 1 -> 2, and so it wouldn't count for 5->6.

I agree that any karma spent on attributes below the racial minimum is karma lost, so there's no benefit to doing it that way.

Why? Where's the rule justification?

And why does this not work the same way as the Infected?

Because the cost from raising from 1 to 2 isn't enough to raise it from 5 to 6. So unless you pay the rest of the cost you don't get the point.

The whole thing about doing character creation in any order assumes you're going to make the appropriate changes elsewhere so the math still adds up. I can't say if Infected are different, because I don't know the rules for them. But I'd assume if they're an exception it'll be because you make a normal Metahuman and then apply a disease to them, which grants certain boosts and certian penalties.

For example you can't pick the In Debt Quality, then decide to spend your gear money, go back and change your Negative Quality to something else and keep the extra Nuyen.

Rule justification is in the costs listed for karmagen.

Improving an attribute by one costs 3x new rating.

New rating is 2, when you're human, so costs 6 karma.

You then choose to be a troll, it says you begin with minimum attribute ratings for the race, so you get your 5 strength. You haven't spent 6x3=18karma to raise it to 6, so it isn't 6, and by going around trying to cheat the system, you've actually lost 6 karma instead.

Oenone basically has it right. You pick your mtahuman race before attributes because that's how you're born. The infected and drake characters are different because that's a template applied to your existing metahuman.

Basically, you're trying to get something for almost nothing with your system, and that's neither balanced, nor what the rules allow for.

It works excatly the same way, first you choose your race(including being infedted or not) and then you buy your atributes, there is no munching work-around for this.
If you do it the other way around then you recalculate the cost of your atributes based on your new minimums.

But there's no rule that says that, whereas there IS one that lets you reorder.

Except, by the way the costs are worded. THe cost is 3x NEW RATING.

That means, you have to keep track of what you improved, and to what rating. IT isn't just +1 strength 6 karma. Its raise strength from 1 to 2, 6 karma.

When your strength becomes 5 due to a different race, you honestly think strength 1->2 for 6 karma means your strength becomes 6 now?


Or, even though your jumping around, you still have to follow the instructions for each step, and under attribute it happens to say, "Characters begin with the minimum attribute ratings defined by their race/metatype."

The fact is that metahuman attributes are *not* modifiers to the base human stats (i.e. Trolls are not +4 strength, -2 cha, etc, as it was in SR1-3, they're a minimum of 5, max 10 at chargen)

The infected Qualities (not true races) modify your racial stats. A troll ghoul will get plusses and ms applied *after* you've decided their stats to begin with.

Order doesn't matter, race raises atribute minimums and maximums not the current values so if you make the character as a human and then decide to make her an elf you recalculate the cost of your abilities based on the new minimums.

This is supposed to be funny, yes? If you later choose to be a metahuman, you will have to recalculate your attributes (and recheck validity).

Balance? Troll>Ork>Elf>Dwarf.

Oh and personally I suspect the game impact is pretty much that balance gets hurled out of the nearest window, shortly followed by a large piano and maybe some anvils too. Depending on which metatype you're trying to tack on that way.

Regarding the Infected qualities - can anyone provide a rules quote as to if the Infected attribute modifiers apply before or after determining advancement costs? If there is no quote available, can one of the developers give an answer? I can easily argue it both ways, & it is important for me at the moment.

Id say before becose they affect the attribute minimums and maximums not the current rating. so first you select the characters race and then whether or not she's infected, after that you start raising your attributes.

Edit.Tarantula got the quote i based my post.

RC, 76-77, "Players can create Infected characters using the standard character generation method presented in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition. After a metatype or metavariant is chosen, the player picks the appropriate Infected quality (see p. 79), pays the appropriate BP cost, and adjusts her Attribute maximums and minimums according to the Infected Attribute Modifiers Table (p. 79) to reflect her new post-human limits. She may then continue on with buying her attributes, skills, equipment, and other qualities."

In which case Infected work just like a slightly longer version of the normal pick your metatype step. Which means you still have to pay more for boosting the stats at character creation. Which only seems fair as you're getting a whole bunch of abilities added in.

Except the whole thing gets muddied up by changing the order you do it in.

At least it's clear for BP... *sigh*

Which is why you have to re-do the costs. Which is one of the two downsides of Karma gen, the other being it makes stronger characters.

It really doesn't. You're trying to make it get muddied, when it really isn't at all.