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shadowfire
post Sep 3 2008, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (Hatspur @ Sep 3 2008, 11:02 AM) *
Mind you, I kind of have a unique situation where my entire group agreed that D&D 4th was a waste of time and money especially now that all the old books became cheaper. If you don't like what the businesses are doing to your game, don't let it stand. We are all the masters of our own groups and we can make the choices not to do what Wotc or whoever wants us to do.



i would have to say that my group was off almost the same option as far as 4th edition.
We heard about the that they had planed to do with it before it was released and thought, "i hope this kills off D&D", then we read the core books when they came out and said-" wow theres like two rules in the whole game that are anything near good- the rest is crap". Mind you we didn't think we were going to drop everything to play the new D&D anyway so it was no big deal. There is much better games out there that have more to them and that don't act like crappy video games.
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Reg06
post Sep 4 2008, 03:51 AM
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QUOTE (shadowfire @ Sep 3 2008, 06:47 PM) *
i would have to say that my group was off almost the same option as far as 4th edition.
We heard about the that they had planed to do with it before it was released and thought, "i hope this kills off D&D", then we read the core books when they came out and said-" wow theres like two rules in the whole game that are anything near good- the rest is crap". Mind you we didn't think we were going to drop everything to play the new D&D anyway so it was no big deal. There is much better games out there that have more to them and that don't act like crappy video games.


Even if anything you said held any water, it's not like Final Fantasy ever borrowed anything from D&D. Which is good, because about the worst crime I can imagine is one form of media borrowing good ideas from another.
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shadowfire
post Sep 4 2008, 05:12 AM
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lol

Wow your a clever one. I hope you didn't get that GED out of a cracker jack box. Yes, Final fantasy and D&D are high fantasy styled games/settings, and thats where the comparison ends. D&D has nothing on final fantasy and final fantasy has everything that D&D does not; i highly doubt that the makers of the first Final fantasy borrowed anything from D&D and would ever do so. I believe that were more inspired by great Victorian fantasy authors and Japanese mythology than a dungeon crawling hack and slash game. I believe that you forgot that final fantasy has one thing D&D never has had- story/plot and internal character development, much like a good fantasy novel.
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Reg06
post Sep 4 2008, 05:31 AM
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Exactly, attack my intelligence rather than my argument (though admittedly you did you both, so well done).
As to the actual point, Final Fantasy has roots in D&D. The original Final Fantasy had very classic D&D monsters, but I being as how I've only played X I won't dig into the others. I fail to see how a turn based RPG made 12 years after D&D about a hero who must journey into the lair of a dragon to restore peace to the land can't be said to have borrowed from D&D (the game would be Dragon Quest, the game Final Fantasy was based on). Sure it's possible that a decade later a video game with almost the same premise (and the same gameplay) as D&D would not have roots in D&D, but unlikely.
Calling something shit because it borrows from another form of media is fairly silly. Despite the fact that the Metal Gear series has ridiculously long cut scenes doesn't stop it from being one of the best and most popular video games series on the planet.

QUOTE (shadowfire @ Sep 4 2008, 05:12 AM) *
I believe that you forgot that final fantasy has one thing D&D never has had- story/plot and internal character development, much like a good fantasy novel.

No. You are quit simply wrong. That is the entire point of D&D- to create those things.
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Redjack
post Sep 4 2008, 07:16 AM
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 4 2008, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Reg06 @ Sep 4 2008, 01:31 AM) *
Despite the fact that the Metal Gear series has ridiculously long cut scenes doesn't stop it from being one of the best and most popular video games series on the planet.

Exactly! It's not the ridiculously long cut scenes, it's the atrocious gameplay and ludicrous story. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
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Reg06
post Sep 4 2008, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Sep 4 2008, 06:38 PM) *
Exactly! It's not the ridiculously long cut scenes, it's the atrocious gameplay and ludicrous story. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy the games (after MGS I lost interest, for all of the reasons stated). However, the creator saw how well movies tell stories, and brought that into his gameplay, and it has worked out very well for him.
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Wounded Ronin
post Sep 4 2008, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE (shadowfire @ Sep 4 2008, 12:12 AM) *
lol

Wow your a clever one. I hope you didn't get that GED out of a cracker jack box. Yes, Final fantasy and D&D are high fantasy styled games/settings, and thats where the comparison ends. D&D has nothing on final fantasy and final fantasy has everything that D&D does not; i highly doubt that the makers of the first Final fantasy borrowed anything from D&D and would ever do so. I believe that were more inspired by great Victorian fantasy authors and Japanese mythology than a dungeon crawling hack and slash game. I believe that you forgot that final fantasy has one thing D&D never has had- story/plot and internal character development, much like a good fantasy novel.


They both have hitpoints, dungeon crawls centered around the idea of hidden treasure and random and planned encounters, and they both have the tendency to classify characters along the lines of theif/fighter/magic user/cleric etc.
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Rasumichin
post Sep 4 2008, 11:33 PM
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D&D4, like any tabletop RPG, may very well provide more story and character development than FF ever could.

Final Fantasy just railroads you from cut scene to cut scene, with tons of turn-based combat inbetween (and i fully second that mechanically, it is often strikingly similar- but that may be due to the fact that most computer and video RPGs are strongly D&D-oriented, if not outright knockoffs or even tie-ins- the whole genre wouldn't be imaginable without D&D).

D&D, even in 4th ed, at least offers the chance to actually tell a story instead of merely being presented a story by someone else.

Even if the rules revolve almost exclusively around combat (which mainstream RPGs' rules set is not combat heavy, BTW?) it does at least enable you to also be creative on your own outside of twinking your character.
I don't see that in any part of FF.
This does not mean i dislike the FF series (except for part VIII with its tedious combat system), but it will not provide what i get when playing even the most hack&slashish D&D campaign, while D&D provides all a computer RPG minus the graphic engine has to offer.

Which does not mean i'll switch over to D&D4, i've just gotten halfway used to 3.5 and will stick with Pathfinder and used 3x material if i want to run a D&D campaign.
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Reg06
post Sep 5 2008, 02:59 AM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Sep 5 2008, 12:33 AM) *
while D&D provides all a computer RPG minus the graphic engine has to offer.

I've thought up cooler monsters than FF has ever shown.

QUOTE
Which does not mean i'll switch over to D&D4, i've just gotten halfway used to 3.5 and will stick with Pathfinder and used 3x material if i want to run a D&D campaign.

And I don't really care. Nobody has to switch over to a new game. But when you start talking shit about a game, and refuse to play it because it is new, that is a problem. As part of the "New Edition" gaming generation I've grown up gaming with all the elements that 4e has drawn from, and it is the nearly the perfect game for me because it includes everything I enjoy. I grew up when computer and video games were are fact of life, and so I love to see that on the tabletop. I've always had miniatures infinitely accessible thanks to a healthy industry and the internet, so I love to to have that in my RGPs. I grew up with Magic, and Pokemon ruled my playground, so any card game features (and so far I see none in 4e) are familiar to me.

The "New Edition" gaming culture is important because older games (and I'll keep the D&D theme here because it is easy), like AD&D, have nothing to give me. Sure it is an RPG, but it comes from the cheesy fantasy of the 80's, I'm not a fan of that- my generation's fantasy is Diablo, and The Song of Ice and Fire. All the players of AD&D are not part of my generation- I'd be the baby at the table, and we all know gamers love to play the knowledgeable elder (often to the point of annoyance). Without new editions that the new gamers can relate to and find enticing, the hobby would die.
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Rasumichin
post Sep 5 2008, 03:45 AM
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QUOTE (Reg06 @ Sep 5 2008, 03:59 AM) *
I've thought up cooler monsters than FF has ever shown.


Does that include Ultros? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I mostly agree on the rest though, even though i grew up on He-Man and Transformers instead of Magic and Pôkemon (and wouldn't want to change that, even though it would make me ten years younger) and treasure my old Planes Of Chaos box set, my gonzo first ed TDE adventures, the Runequest 2 creatures book and Shadowbeat.

Do we need GitS influences in SR to keep the game alive?
Well, probably yes.
And i don't mind playing in a campaign with cyborgs, technomancers and furries instead of poodle-haired elven deckers.
As long as there's enough mohawks, of course.
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Blade
post Sep 5 2008, 07:56 AM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Sep 5 2008, 01:33 AM) *
(which mainstream RPGs' rules set is not combat heavy, BTW?)


Dying Earth RPG. There are combat rules, but they have the same complexity as social rules and they are used a lot less. If you get in a combat situation it means that something has gone very bad. Combat is dangerous and most of the time there are safer ways around (such as running away, persuading the monster that you're not that good to eat or settling that matter with a card game), so why bother fighting?
But Dying Earth might not be a "mainstream RPG".
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Fuchs
post Sep 5 2008, 08:46 AM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Sep 5 2008, 05:45 AM) *
Do we need GitS influences in SR to keep the game alive?
Well, probably yes.
And i don't mind playing in a campaign with cyborgs, technomancers and furries instead of poodle-haired elven deckers.
As long as there's enough mohawks, of course.


The Ghost in the Shell comic started in 1991 - in the time of SR1. It's not exactly "new edition", in my opinion.
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Reg06
post Sep 5 2008, 06:51 PM
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QUOTE (Fuchs @ Sep 5 2008, 09:46 AM) *
The Ghost in the Shell comic started in 1991 - in the time of SR1. It's not exactly "new edition", in my opinion.

The Ghost in the Shell came out at a time that meant once all those kids who had grown up with that (we start watching TV younger than we do roleplaying) come into the age to start roleplaying right about when SR4 came out. So one could argue GitS is a New Edition thing (not that gamers of the old school can't enjoy it).
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DocTaotsu
post Sep 8 2008, 11:54 AM
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GitS, especially the TV show is definitely new edition. AR, cyber brains, e-ghosts etc. Hell there are more than a few threads with people using 4th edition to put together all the cool crap from that show that wasn't fully imagined in previous editions.
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Nkari
post Sep 10 2008, 12:42 PM
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SR4 is vastly more appealing to me than SR3 ever was, its better steamlined, etc etc.. so all in all it was a good "new" edition..

Now we take white wolfs World of Darkness (Im putting all their games into the WoD.. since they all interact more or less) Their WoD 1.0 I LOVED, I bought most stuff that had vampire written on it =) Then when WoD 2.0 came out, they scrapped the whole meta plot and began a new.. BLAND meta plot, and rewrote the rules, and not testing them properly (to many inconsitencys imho) so I stopped giving white wolf my money..

Then we have a swedish "realistic" fantasy RPG called EON, its on its 3rd generation atm, but the company is small and soley employ freelance writers, so the release rate of new books isnt that fast.. What they do instead is that they revisit the main rules every few years, but all the sourcebooks etc from the previous editions are still compatible with the new editions, they do minor tweaks here and there, fix typos, fix broken rules, steamline the stuff that takes to long, alot of stuff.. and it WORKS.. there is little or no power creep, there are very very few instances where older stuff is not compatible with new stuff since the addon books does not add new rules most of the time, its mearly settings, histocical information, and some adventures. And the world is fairly consistant, tho they need to revisit the geographica mundana and fix the population numbers, standing army numbers because generally the population is WAY to low for a country that size, and the army is generally WAY to big for a country of that size or even larger when you look at them in a histocial context..
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Reg06
post Sep 10 2008, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (Nkari @ Sep 10 2008, 01:42 PM) *
Now we take white wolfs World of Darkness (Im putting all their games into the WoD.. since they all interact more or less) Their WoD 1.0 I LOVED, I bought most stuff that had vampire written on it =) Then when WoD 2.0 came out, they scrapped the whole meta plot and began a new.. BLAND meta plot, and rewrote the rules, and not testing them properly (to many inconsitencys imho) so I stopped giving white wolf my money..

That's funny. I loved WoD 1.0, and I had a bunch of books. And then NWoD came out, and I love every single thing about it. The rules are more streamlined and easy, and the game itself is the horror game old WoD wished it could have been- new Werewolf is actually scarey. Where you see the meta-plot as bland, I see it as far less restrictive (Argh! I'm a werewolf, all vampires are of the wyrm! Rargh! Kill all vampires no matter what, no questions asked!), far more interesting (again, the vampire sects are what the Camarilla and Sabbat should have looked like if they had been written with any talent), and it has many more possibilities (plus, Prometheus is awesome).
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shadowfire
post Sep 10 2008, 10:09 PM
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I liked the old Changeling a lot better. It was the happiest place in the world of darkness. The new ones just all about being sad and an outcast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Reg06
post Sep 10 2008, 10:15 PM
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I'll admit I haven't seen the new Changeling, but I heard it was basically Neil Gaiman: The Roleplaying Game (or more to the point, that's what I wanted), which is fairly awesome.
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DocTaotsu
post Sep 10 2008, 11:05 PM
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"Neil Gaiman: The Roleplaying Game" was sadly banned in this country because the vast quantities of hallucinagenic drugs that came with it are illegal here.

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hobgoblin
post Sep 11 2008, 10:24 PM
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a couple of comments here.

i find that cpv3 stands on its own ok, but when viewed as a continuation of cp2020, its somewhat over the top...

the living city that sprawls most of california intrigues me. same with the fraction and their differing approach to tech (even tho i have a hard time wrapping my head around the social structures of some of them. but most seem to have a core of good old fashion honor).

the initial final fantasy games on NES had a very similar spell mechanic to d&d. you had different level spells, and could cast a number of spells pr level before having to rest (more like the d&d3 sorceror then the classical wizard, tho).

beyond that i seem to never really care if a system changes. im kinda "funny" that way. each editions system gets to stand on its own feet.

but i agree that d&d4 looks more like a mmorpg in paper form then the toyboxes that have been, to me at least, a trait that differs paper rpgs from just about any other kind of game.
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Wesley Street
post Sep 15 2008, 05:07 PM
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Having played a couple of sessions of D&D4E and reading interviews with the Wizards of the Coast developers, 4th edition was specially designed to incorporate miniatures into the game play. I don't think it's fair to compare 4th Ed. to MMORPGs (as five or six people sitting around a table rolling dice isn't exactly massive) but RPGs that incorporate visual imagery into the game (be that through physical models, simple computer generated maps, etc.) is the future of non-LARP RPGs. The line between tabletop and pure RP games is becoming ever blurrier.

What's the easiest way to get people who like Hero Clix or Star Wars minis into D&D? Incorporate the Hero Clix into D&D. And, honestly, as a GM, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Letting the minis keep track of player positions and objects and focusing more on story and other elements makes for a more enjoyable gaming experience for me. I have a powerful imagination but I also like having something tangible to touch and "act" with to keep all the players on the same page.
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shadowfire
post Sep 16 2008, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Sep 15 2008, 01:07 PM) *
Having played a couple of sessions of D&D4E and reading interviews with the Wizards of the Coast developers, 4th edition was specially designed to incorporate miniatures into the game play. I don't think it's fair to compare 4th Ed. to MMORPGs (as five or six people sitting around a table rolling dice isn't exactly massive) but RPGs that incorporate visual imagery into the game (be that through physical models, simple computer generated maps, etc.) is the future of non-LARP RPGs. The line between tabletop and pure RP games is becoming ever blurrier.

What's the easiest way to get people who like Hero Clix or Star Wars minis into D&D? Incorporate the Hero Clix into D&D. And, honestly, as a GM, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Letting the minis keep track of player positions and objects and focusing more on story and other elements makes for a more enjoyable gaming experience for me. I have a powerful imagination but I also like having something tangible to touch and "act" with to keep all the players on the same page.


I don't think its the inclusion of minis that is the reason why D&D4th is being called a Table top MMO. In fact, 3rd edition was designed with chainmail in mind. Many games out there have some design element in them where the use of minis make combat situations more easy to show movement and tactics, as well as in game effects.
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Wesley Street
post Sep 16 2008, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE (shadowfire @ Sep 16 2008, 11:56 AM) *
I don't think its the inclusion of minis that is the reason why D&D4th is being called a Table top MMO.

Using "squares" instead of "feet" for movement doesn't make a game any more tabletop.

In those two or three preview publications that came out before D&D 4th ed.'s release, the lead developer was quoted as saying the game mechanics were being specifically redesigned for the inclusion of minis.
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Sweaty Hippo
post Sep 16 2008, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Aug 18 2008, 11:27 AM) *
Are there really that many more mistakes these days?


Depends on the RPG system. But all RPGs have some form of loophole/flaw that people who are very dedicated/obsessed with the game can easily find. And even small problems can be blown out of proportion.
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