Mind throwing out a quote? I never caught this tidbit before.

You mention intent and I'm speaking of mechanics. By RAW IC and Agents are identical in every way making IC a waste of nuyen when a cloned agent is exactly the same thing.

Heres one for the devs: How do you target air for the Clean [element] air spell to clean it? Air isn't "seen" typically, so how can you target it if you can't see it?

You can see air. You're not consciously aware of it unless it changes. Go to places where air is thin (like the top of K2) and objects at a distance become much sharper as atmospheric distortion starts to minimize. Atmospheric distortion is the reason for Hubble-type space telescopes. Also, "dirty" air is very noticeable as it's filled with pollutant particulate. Ask anyone living in L.A. or Shanghai and they will tell you on bad smog days the air looks orange or brown.

And what about dirty air when filled with a colorless nerve gas? Still clear, but still not a good plan to breathe.

How exactly do you "see" air? How would it be any different than "seeing" someone with improved invis?

Given the amount of bile some recent threads have generated (hence Bull's anti-venom sticky) I'm not surprised. They may be taking a break from us until we cool out. Poor Ancient History (Bobby Derie) got dog-piled on about Sasquatch communication and he wrote the section in Runner's Companion.

The debate comes in that SR's tinting and mirroring is supposed to be more complete than is legal nowadays...but still it looks to me that the intention seems to be: if transparent one way normally, it's an astral shadow both ways.

Then a mage is probably screwed.


You don't see people with improved invisibility as the spell tricks your vision centers and electronic sensors into believing nothing is there. An improved invisibility-cloaked mage could kick a soda can and a theoretical second mage would know he was there but, as he has nothing for his eyes to lock onto, he couldn't cast a spell on him.

How do you see air? I dunno. I guess just cross your eyes or don't concentrate on any one thing on the ground. Just cast "up and around" into the air that you can perceive with your eyes. Which might actually work for the nerve gas thing if you knew what was happening before it was too late.

I disagree. I think the example was used thinking of current day car windows, not the can't see in one way windows of shadowrun. Its hard to guess at intentions though, and I"ll just say I don't think that mages should be able to cast through car windows, astrally perceiving or not.



Nothing is there? No light? No air? Nothing? So, you'd avoid the bubble of nothing so you didn't suffocate?

I still don't think air is visible, as the light isn't reflecting off it at all. Unless we go back to the imp invis description again, which says warping light around the subject, in which case, they're an equally valid target as the air which isn't reflected off of.

I think a dev needs to clear up how you can target air, as the books don't really mesh well with it.

Ummm, you do realize 'Clean' is a area effect spell right? You target an area that you want to 'Clean'; so, if the air is toxic in the room you are standing in, you would 'target the room' with the intent of 'cleaning the air'.

It hasn't come up in my group - we've been playing for up to all 4 iterations of the system, and have a LOT of old half-remembered preconceptions about how things are supposed to work. Fortunately, that tends to solve more problems than it starts.

Still, it's physically impossible to get something 100% opaque in one direction only - that's why observation rooms with one way mirrors have such an enormous lighting difference between sides. There's always going to be some degree of light going the "wrong" way.

So, if theres an imp invis guy in a 6 meter room, and you know hes there. Would you let your mage stunball the room and hit him?

No, but would you let the mage cast a fireball and hit him?

Trick question.

Stunball is a direct combat spell... the rules say explicitly that you cannot target what you cannot see with direct combat spells- even with AE.

However, a fireball (indirect combat spell) or grenade... yes. Assuming the blast radius is enough to hit the target, being invisible does not protect you.

Your point?

Elemental manipulation area combat spells explicitly allow hitting of targets the mage cannot see. So yes.

The clean [element] spell does not have that exemption.

It is also not a direct combat spell.

Direct combat spells use the same targetting rules as all other spells, and it is the indirect elemental manipulation spells that have special ones. A direct combat spell would have the same valid targets in an area as the Clean [element] spell. Though, stunball is M, so lets go with powerball instead.

I think you answered your own question.

Again, Clean is an area affect [elemental] spell, you target an area and 'clean it up'.

Why is this so difficult for you?

Actually, Clean [Element] is an Environmental and Area spell.

Fireball is an Indirect, Elemental, and Area spell.

They are not valid comparisons.

Still answering your own questions.

Environmental spells make no change of the spellcasting rules that you must have LOS to affect something.

You are affecting the environment of an area. The LOS is the area which you are targeting. So, you target the room- designating the area that you can see- and command the spell to 'cleanse the air' in said area.

Not rocket science here buddy.

Actually, when learned, the spell would be merely Clean Air.

And again, yes, it affects an area, much like powerbolt. You target the area. Now, you cannot see the air in the area, much like you cannot see our invisible guy in the area, are they affected by the spells?

If so? Why?

If not? Why Not?

I am going to (futilely) try this one last time.

Imagine you are a mage, looking in a room; you know that the room is fulled with toxic gas, and also has several people in the room with environmental suit on. You need the datachip on the desk.

First you cast Powerball. It is a direct combat spell, so every person you can see within the area each gets hit- while the mana is 'erupting from within', you are directing that mana- hence you need LOS.

The guys fall down.

Now, the air is toxic still, you cannot enter the room... so you visualize the entire room (which you are strong enough to affect with your magic) and 'clean' it. You are directing the mana throughout the entire room with the command to remove the toxins so you can enter. It might take a few turns, but afterwards you walk in the room safely and take the datachip.

(To bad there was an invisible mage also in the room that you did not account for, and he manabolted you dead).

Now, if you insist on being so anal that you have to 'see' the toxin... I guess in your games you can only clean really bad, dark toxins. So be it. Logic is clearly lost on you... unless it supports your argument, of course.

IIRC, you cannot use a powerbolt (or any Direct combat spell) to hit part of an object. You have to hit the whole thing as a unit. You could use a Lightning bolt to blast it out, though.