I guess I need to quote Step 7: entirely then...

SR4, 174, "Step 7: Ongoing Effects
Many spells can be sustained for as long as the magician
is willing to concentrate on the spell, as noted in the spell’s
Duration. While sustained spells do offer the opportunity to
have an ongoing magical effect, they are also draining on the
magician’s magical abilities. For each sustained spell the magician
maintains, she suffers a –2 dice penalty on all other tests.
If an area-effect spell is sustained, the affected area may be
moved with a Complex Action, as long as it remains within line of
sight. Characters who “drop out� of the affected area are no longer
affected by the spell; characters who are “enveloped� by the area
must defend against the effects of the spell as appropriate.
If the gamemaster chooses, certain circumstances may
threaten to break a magician’s concentration while she is sustaining
a spell, such as taking damage, full defense, dropping prone,
and so on. If a magician’s concentration is disrupted while sustaining
a spell, she must make a Willpower + Spellcasting (2)
Test to avoid dropping the sustained spell (note that the sustaining
modifier does not apply to this test)."

You MUST sustain it AFTER the drain.

Also, Street Magic, from the Spell design rules, 160, "If a permanent spell is not maintained for the entire
time required (Drain Value x 2 Combat Turns), it does not become permanent and its effect is lost."
If the effect is lost if not maintained for long enough, then the effect begins before the end of the maintaining.

You just don't stop do you?

IMHO, sustained durations are different then Permanent ones.

When you Sustain a spell (a spell that has duration: S) you follow step 7.

If you are casting a Permanent spell (a spell that has a duration: P), you never get to step seven. You must spend X rounds casting the spell (ahem, one complex action 'casting' and the rest forcing the magic to stay put) to make it permanent and then you resist drain.

The FAQ supports me, you choose to ignore it. Case closed.

No, the FAQ doesn't. The FAQ says that you need to keep LOS/Touch for permanent spells while you sustain them. It does not say you do not take drain until the spell is made permanent. In fact, nothing says you do not take drain until the spell is made permanent.

Also, nothing says you can't continue taking other actions as long as you are able to keep sustaining the Permanent spell as well (i.e. keeping your hand on the guy you're healing, you should still be able to be tossing out stunbolts or shooting your pistol). Also, nothing says that sustaining a Permanent spell takes any actions at all.

Another Permanent spell that functions differently than the norm is Stabilize. It too states that the character is not stabilized until the spell is permanent. Its logical to think that if a character was not healed until the spell was made permanent, the Heal spell would state this also.

Right or wrong... Jeebus I wish a Dev. would put their two cents into this thread.

Do you believe you can counterspell heal?

Yes, you could. It doesn't require a voluntary target.

What does 'voluntary' have to do with it?

If a spell requires a voluntary target, you can't counterspell to resist it, since you simply have to not be voluntary.
Otherwise, you can counterspell it as part of your resistance test.

Also, I would interpret that you could dispell a permanent spell that is being sustained and is not yet permanent the same way you can dispell sustain spells.

No, you misunderstood... let me rephrase:

If you cast heal on your teammate, can a NPC counterspell it?

I'd say only if hes declared counterspelling on your teammate in advance with a free action. I also think he could dispell it during the sustaining part of a permanent spell.

Thank you I have no wish to read this thread now.

I think this is one of the key points that Kurious is overlooking...

This implies that the spell's effects are already present, and only if the spell is dropped before becoming permanent do the effects disappear.

This is neither supported nor contradicted by the FAQ, which only deals with the range requirements of a permanent spell.

This leads one to the logical conclusion that per the FAQ, one can cast a heal spell, which takes effect immediately, but needs to remain in contact with the target for the duration.

I still don't agree with the FAQ, but it only mentions the range requirements. It says nothing about the effects taking effect immediately or being delayed until permanent, which is clearly covered in the above quote from Street Magic.

The spell effects take effect immediately, unless otherwise stated in the spell description. Otherwise, what effect would be lost in dropping the spell?

*Edit*

Upon a second reading of the FAQ, it does say "You must maintain touch or line of sight when casting a Permanent spell, however, until the spell's effects become permanent."

I'd have to say that this does support the spell taking effect immediately, otherwise it should say "until the spell takes effect".

Any new opinions on the subject?

This post has been edited by Shrapnel: Sep 13 2008, 05:32 AM

New opinions? No.

As previously mentioned, all in all, whether the spells effect happens on the first round or the last is a minor detail.

I like a hint of verisimilitude in my games, so it makes more sense (to me) to have heal act like first aid, where you are tending to the wound over course of a few turns. However, if you prefer a play style that caters to the instant heal that comes grossly undone if interrupted, that is cool too.

The real question is: When does Drain take effect in a Permanent spell?

Since everything is subject to interpretation, mine is: you cast a spell (heal), you focus it to make it Permanent, then Drain sets in. When you use this interpretation coupled with the idea that a Permanent spell is maintained (not 'Sustained per duration type') you force your mage to stand still for a few rounds and 'conduct a heal' (as if using first aid). If someone wished to counterspell you, they could only do so at the original casting the of spell.

If you go with the interpretation that the spell is immediate, and the drain comes before the 'Sustained rounds' (per duration), that means someone can counterspell either at the original casting, OR during the sustained rounds.

(I must admit, am curious to the explanation that a person was healed 6 life -immediately- from the initial cast, but in the X rounds the mage 'Sustained' the spell to make permanent- the healing was counter spelled down to 2...).

Damn you people. Damn you all! God this kind of crap is why I'm getting so sick of Dumpshock..... *sigh*

No one is going to give up on either side so stop arguing as this is totally useless! Useless!

It does not matter when the Drain comes in, it cannot be dispelled as if it were a Sustained spell because it is not. Since the "maintanance" period is still casting the spell, then there will be successes during "maintanance" and that would add to the successes for casting the spell, in effect, it is an Extended Test spell with a period of 1 Complex Action.

With the drain & effect come once permanent interpretation, whats to stop a mage from casting Heal at force 6, getting only 2 hits, deciding to not maintain it, and next turn, casting it again, getting 3, not maintaining it, and trying a third time, and getting the full 6 hits, and then maintaining that and taking drain once its permanent? Since the wounds were never healed, and he never took drain (as he never finished the spell) then he can effectively try over and over until he gets max hits.

With the interpretation that the drain and healing happens immediately, it does not mean that the spell can be counterspelled. Thats yet another seperate interpretation that can apply to either situation. We have 2 issues here, when the effects/drain happen, and if a permanent spell is treated like a sustained spell from when cast to when its permanent. They are seperate, and have differing effects when combined with each other.


As far as if it is counterspellable, I'd say that if the damage is healed immediately, dispelling it while it is sustained would not affect the amount healed, and they would have to fully dispell it to make the wounds reappear. If the damage is healed at the end of the sustaining however, then reducing the hits achieved before the damage is healed would reduce the amount healed.


Toturi, I think the book makes it ambiguous whether permanent spells being sustained for permanency are treated as a sustained spell during that time, or something else entirely. I personally think that they should be treated as a sustained spell, as the "other" is never described, and they do use the same verbage as is used for a sustained spell.

If a spell is counterspelled in full, does the caster still have to resist Drain?

Same applies to casting, but not finishing the spells duration. As soon as you quit casting, you would get Drain.



By your first definition, healing would never need to be 'Sustained/maintained' ever- just cast it, insta-heal, and move on. Very counter-intuitive and contrary to the rules. Also, you can counterspell Sustained spells. If you are treating a Permanent spell as a Sustained one: you can counterspell it.

You can't claim something is 'Sustained' then turn around and ignore the explicit rules involving counterspelling Sustained spells.




Well said!!

Yes. You do.

I guess thats one work around, but theres no support at all in the rules for it.



How so?

Myself, "I'd say that if the damage is healed immediately, dispelling it while it is sustained would not affect the amount healed, and they would have to fully dispell it to make the wounds reappear."
You are sustaining it until permanent, because if you stop, the wounds reappear. I don't see how you think I said you don't have to sustain it.


I know this, did you not follow my post?

There are two issues being discussed.

When permanent spell effects/drain happen, at the casting of the spell, or when it becomes permanent.

AND

During the sustaining of a permanent spell, is it treated as a Sustained duration spell (along with a -2 penalty) or is it something else?


These are not mutually exclusive. So there are 4 possible combinations.
1) Effects happen when cast, and spell is as a sustained spell until permanent.
2) Effects happen when cast, and spell is not the same as a sustained spell until permanent.
3) Effects do not happen when cast, and spell is as a sustained spell until permanent.
4) Effects do not happen when cast, and spell is not the same as a sustained spell until permanent.

Do you understand what I am trying to say now? They are not mutually exclusive of each other.

Because counterspelling 'Sustained' (per duration) spells reduces hits.

I.e.: you score six hits, I counterspell 4, you only have 2 remaining.

This cannot be ignored just because the 'heal is instant', because- by your definition- you are 'Sustaining' (per duration) a Permanent spell

Another problem with the 'insta-heal' interpretation. What happens when you heal for 6, but do not 'Sustain/maintain' the spell for the full duration? If you rule the wounds remain healed- you go directly against the book regarding the need for a duration. Everyone would just 'cast and go'.

Your only other option is- the wounds reappear in a horrific fashion.

Playing it where you 'maintain' the spell (and not double up on duration types) & say the spell effect completes when the spell becomes natural alleviates both of these issues.

Then you could also say that the counterspelled hits no longer count, and that damage reappears horifically.

If you heal for 6, but don't sustain it for the duration, the wounds would come back. I don't see how this is a confusing leap, as you even said it yourself. (I never said that the wounds would not come back).


Problems with the "maintain but not sustain" interpretation is that such maintaining is not described anywhere in the rules. So, what happens if I knock you out while you're maintaining it? Can you still maintain it? What if I just cover your eyes? Make it so you don't touch the target?

Can you do other actions while maintaining the permanent spell? Which ones? Why?

Neither positions is expressly stated... hence the debate that has waged for almost 10 pages.
(And very well may continue long after).

Under my interpretation: you knock me out before the spell is 'Natural', the spell goes away. If you break the LOS, or touch requirement, the spell goes away.

And when you are casting a Permanent spell, you are casting a Permanent spell until that spell is Natural on the target or your efforts have been thwarted.

When does drain happen? What happens when the spell "goes away"? What happens if I am counterspelling your target? Can I dispell it while you are casting it on him? What if I declare counterspelling after you've already started casting it? What if I cast mana static in your area after you've started the spell?

Your position requires adding rules to the game that do not exist. In other words, your position relies on making something up.

(Added numbers for clarity).

IMHO:
1)-Drain happens at the completion of the spell (after it becomes Natural on the target), or when the spell is abandoned or otherwise interpreted.
2)-The same rules per Permanent spells 'going away'
3)-Counterspell per normal rules.
4)-Yes, but only when the spell is first being cast- during the complex action of casting, not the extended action of making it Natural.

As Toturi eloquently and accurately stated:


Therefore,
5)-During the extended action of 'Naturalizing' (after the complex action of casting)- you cannot counterspell.
6)-Same goes for manastatic.




Hardly.

The only thing I am doing is making a case against the 'duo-duration' interpretation.

2) You say "going away" again. I want you to spell out what happens when a permanent spell "goes away". Because "going away" isn't a rules term, I'm not sure what you mean by it.
3) Ok.
4) I said dispell specifically, as thats an action that can be taken with counterspelling on sustained spells. I'll take a guess here and say you wouldn't allow it, as you don't consider the spell sustained, right?
5) Is the same thing pretty much.
6) Same? Mana static causes a background count in the area. If you cast a force 1 heal for example, and got 1 hit, and were "naturalizing" it. During which time I cast a force 1 mana static that covered you and the target, how does that work? Will the spell "go away"? Will you take the increased drain from mana static or not?