That is exactly the measure one can use and is disprovable. Plenty of Elves in Shadowrun die of disease all the time. But none have yet been known to die of old age. VITAS anyone?

Some of the "Immortal Elf" stuff might just be an anti-aging propaganda scheme where the operators are trying to cash in on everyone's fears of dying before Elves realize it is one thing they don't have to worry about (as opposed to car accidents, disease, violence, etc). Immortal Elves are more traditional to high (Tolkien-esque) fantasy that Shadowrun is based on and so personally I've always liked this option.

It is of course up to every GM how they want to play.

Umm, it is my understanding that in the Fourth World as well as the SIxth World Immortal Elves are immune to disease while normal elves are not, so at the very least the Dragons gave their pawns immunity to diseases.

Now with that said, having all elves being ageless in Shadowrun is preferable to me over the crap IEs we have now per canon.

One cool thing about both Shadowrun and Earthdawn is that almost all information is presented as in-universe knowledge, meaning that almost anything could be the truth.

A summary of my knowledge on the subject:

• No elf has died of old age in the Sixth World.
• Some elves being immortal is still considered to be rumor and/or conspiracy theory by almost all in the Sixth World.
• There are in fact some elves that lived through much of the Fourth World, all of the Fifth, and into the Sixth.
• Dwarven records from the Fourth World, generally considered to be very accurate, state that elves have a lifespan of 300–400 years.
• In speaking amongst themselves, Great Dragons of the Fourth World personally recall the creation of the first Immortal Elves (as the offspring of normal elves and Great Dragons).

So there is pleanty of room for a GM to take any of the following positions:

• The Dragon's story is true, the Immortal Elves are a genetic minority of elves.
• The Dragon's were right, but the Immortal Elf genes are now in most of the elven population, and they conceal this though deception.
• The Dragons only think they are right, but all elves are immortal unless 1) killed, or 2) they let themselves go having tired of life (usually after a few centuries, hence the dwarven records).
• The Dragons were being deceptive and there is some conspiracy by them to wither most elves, and only those that have resisted are immortal.
• Almost any other GM idea that fits the details from the first list.

Are we SURE Imortal Elves are immune to disease, though? We just know we havenever seen a depiction of one getting sick. Now, if you live long enough, you might easily have caught a cold a whole bunch of times, and developed immunity through exposure to all the various strains of the common cold. If they are the failed servants of the dragons, what probably happened was that the Great Dragons gave them a broad-spectrum immunization, but them being "immune to disease" is not enough evidence to go "Well, all Elves cannot be efectively immortal, since these guys are immune to disease, but these other, younger ones, are not."

You will have to ask Ancient History for the reference but it is my understanding that yeah, we do know that IEs are immune to disease where-as normal elves are not. We also know that in the Fourth World the lifespan of elves were recorded and a known fact.

And I'm sorry, but the idea that someone can live long enough to become immune to diseases because he has caught the common cold an untold number of times has got to be one of the stupidest theories I've ever heard because like all living things the fragging cold virus is always evolving into new strains.

*EDIT*

Of course, like everything else connected to the distant past of the Sixth World, if you make your own Fourth World as opposed to using Earthdawn (Which is what I do in my campaigns.) you are free to use all sorts of cool ideas like elves all being ageless.

By-the-way, consider that idea stolen because it is fragging cool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

I prefer the "elves and all other metahumans were originally human, and still are basically human" approach. All age and die, some just take a bit longer than others. If I'd be using Immortal Elves they'd actually not be human at all, but something else taking the form of elves - like flesh form bug spirits.

This was my thought too - the IEs are actually Inhabitation-using spirits of some type summoned into the bodies of elves by dragons. Some IEs were made during the last cycle of magic, but a few have been newly made in the Sixth World. They're not really elves anymore at all, they just look like elves.

Then how do you explain Frosty? She's Ehran's daughter, is apparently a normal Elf with that pesky immortality thing going on, and was born (w/o word to the contrary) like any Elf would be.

Looks like an Elf, acts like an Elf, apprenticed to an Elf that the Big D recognized as an Elf...

I'd have to say she's an (Immortal) Elf.

Besides, I could have sworn canon material said the original IEs were the offspring of Dragons & mortal Elves and with that being a genetic trait, they could pass it on to future children from IE + E or IE + IE couples.

Besides, I would think if they were Inhabitation spirits there would have been a problem for them during the down-cycle.

There is no reason that the merged form could not provide elven genetic material (semen, blood, etc.). The offspring would be a normal elf, not an IE. However, it's certainly possible that Frosty was born normal and later merged with a spirit to make an IE. Dragons can be tricky.


End product (IE) is the same, but the path is different.


I though that I made it clear that I have diverged fron canon. IMO, all of the direct ED/SR crossover is shit (but I like ED as an independent game), so I'm making my own possiblities here. I prefer a more mysterious and less defined Fourth World.


In my version, they were confined to very specific magic locus locations during the downcycle and even then existed in a state of 'near-death' much like withered mummies in tombs although they were able to astrally contact one another from time to time. They had almost no influence on the developing Fifth World until just before the new millenium (1990s) when the first traces of returning mana revitalized them and restored their appearances. It would still be another decade or so before humanity realized magic was returning, and during this time the IEs studied the world and planned out some strategies. Generally speaking, these stragegies are twofold - anti-Enemy and anti-Great Dragon (they are still sore about the whole enslavement thing and worried that the GDs might try to do it again), but the realities of the former mean that they must sometimes cooperate with the latter.

Didn't realize that you were going non-canon. Nothing mentioned in this thread other than your post just now says you were going non-canon.

My apologies.

The last two points are only covered in ED material, not SR. So going strictly by SR canon and not ED gives you a lot more latitude.

I realize a lot of people if not most SR players use ED as the SR background these days, but it isn't required by a long shot.

Immortality thing going on? Frosty is not THAT old. She is at this point as immortal as every other elf in the Shadowrun universe.

There is nowhere canon I've ever read that IEs are immune to disease. They probably have quite an active immune system after a few thousand years though. But more importantly with advanced magic from the 4th age I'm sure they have some sort of anchored "cure disease" spells. Any reasonable elf who had incredible magic, and wanted to live forever would have some magical solution to the nasty diseases that were bound to creep up on the spot in the 6th age. I mean heck, if a regular street mage can use a "cure disease" spell what can a 6k+ year old elf with an incredible level of initiated magic going to do with "cure disease"?

Oh by per Dunkelzahn's will Dragons can get sick, see the entry about Dragon flu. They don't have immunity to diseases like some creatures have listed as a power either. So what was that about immune to diseases?

I use a home-brew background, with strong "Loans" from Fred Perry's "Gold Digger" for my 4th world.

You are aware that it's been stated (canon) that she *IS* an Immortal Elf, right?

I can't tell you where exactly, as I haven't got the books handy, but I am almost positive that it is mentioned in canon (possibly several times) that Immortal Elves have immunity to age, disease, and pathogens (IIRC). Can someone please find the reference?

Earthdawn as the Fourth World is not required by the rules, however it was created to be the Fourth World to Shadowrun's Sixth, and has been treated as such by the both the creators and owners of both games. This connection has always been implicit in the rulebooks, but is explicit in the novels which include a trilogy spanning both games.

I also remembered one other "in universe" detail germane to a previous post:

• Immortal Elves themselves have described their activity during the Fifth World.

One example, Ehran the Scribe, describes both knowing DaVinchi and creating the Egyptian calendar a century or two after the Fourth World ended.

Harlequin's Back and Threats, as I do recall. Although really it was a plot point in the first Harlequin, where the genealogies of Ehran's descendants showed that observation stopped when they got sick or started showing signs of aging past the twenties.

Thanks for that, Ancient History. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

To quote Harlequin's Back, in the cast of shadows, pg. 147



and...

Jane "Frosty" Foster, pg. 148



and

I SORT of use ED for my SR 4th world. I tend to keep what I like, throw out what I do not, when it is not supported by SR canon.

That said, I really like the idea of IE's actually being Inhabiting Spirits. The Inhabitation would likely give the powers we know about them, but, likely, it is the spirit, not the long subsumed Elf, that is the one directing the body. Since these would likely, by now, at least, be Free Spirits, it means there is the posibility that, if you kill their body, they might jump out, and take on a new Host...Great little way to kill an IE, yet still have the same IE show up again and again.

I usually use ED as the canon 4th world for my games... but I'm starting a new game soon, and I think I might just steal the Inhabitation idea for it.

SR was already around for a few years before they started on ED. Many novels, books like Harlequin, etc had already been written and talked about the 4th world before it became ED. Even then there were those at FASA who had the philosophy that ED was A possible 4th world among several that could be chosen from and some who decided that ED was THE 4th world for SR.

I've always taken it as "A" possible 4th world for SR. I prefer the Celtic/Mayan/Hope myth background for SR more though personally. On the rare occasion it is relevant I either meld the two or try to have both as an optional interpretation of events.

P.S. - How was Leonardo poisoned if IEs are immune?

So when do we get to see Immortal Orks, Trolls and T'skrang - oh my?



Actually if the Immortality trait is recessive, it could be passed on in E+E couplings (and others; see above). I postulate that immortality cannot be passed on during downcycles or the record for longest life would be longer than an hundred something years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"The name's Connor Macleod, of the clan Macleod."

I believe there may be ways for that to be taken care of. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(Reference to ancient and dreadful Eighties flim called Highlander where immortal swordsmen fight to be the last of their kind.")

Highlander was a great film as long as you remember "There can be only one!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)