On October 18th I plan to participate in a pistol competition for county employees in Clark County, NV. It would be my first time ever participating in a pistol competition, so I plan to just relax and enjoy the experience. I don't expect to necessarily do well.

The only handgun I own is a Ruger P97DC, which I purchased used about a year ago from a Henderson gun shop. I guess that it's not really considered a match firearm, but I've put nearly a thousand rounds through it, and I play lots of video games which hones my hand eye coordiation, so I am even curious to see how I am able to perform in spite of whatever drawbacks and inexperience might hinder me.

Also, there are seperate competitions for "marksmen" and "amateurs" so I'd also be participating in the less hardcore division.

It seems like the competition would consist of the following events:

1.) 22 yards 6 rounds 30 seconds
2.) 15 yards 12 rounds 40 seconds
3.) 10 yards 12 rounds 40 seconds
4.) 7 yards 12 rounds 40 seconds

I'm pretty sure that the people here on DSF have heaps more experience and expertise pertaining to all kinds of firearms than I do, and that this is all very ho-hum. But for me since it would be a new experience I'm really excited, and actively hoping that nothing pops up (like getting hit by a bus) that would prevent me from being able to participate that day.

I also figure that after everything is done, I can record my scores and post them here on DSF. Then someone who is smart like Raygun or someone else (since Raygun basically doesn't post here anymore) can tell me what my SR Pistols score is. Or maybe they can even tell me that I apparently have no combat pool! :0

Sounds like fun. Do you know how the event is scored?

It says,

Well, the sum total of my experience with firearms consists entirely of playing FPS's and shooting gallery arcade machines, so I have no idea how hard that will actually be. Best of luck though!

Good luck with the competition. Most of my experience are with rifles, only shot a pistol a handful of times (I own two rifles and no pistols).

Well the key thing here on DSF would be to get people to tell me what my SR3 and SR4 Pistols skill is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I wouldn't worry about your P97DC and it's potential accuracy. I own one myself and it's definitely more accurate than I am. The best part about your Ruger there is how it shoots everything about the same. You get some of the higher-end .45s like the custom/semi-custom 1911s and they like or dislike a lot of different loads. That Ruger likes everything pretty much the same so there is no need to mix and match your ammo to your weapon.

Just grab some WWB and you'll be good to go for your competition.

If you've noted the trigger being a bit on the "clunky" side in DA, you're not alone. One trick you might try to be sure you're not gonna throw your first shot is to pre-cock the weapon before your strings. Trigger control is your god so before you go out on the firing line for money and/or prizes, be sure that you're nice and clear on the breaking and reset characteristics of your trigger with a trip to the range within a few days before the competition itself.

Tell us what your score is at each station and I'm sure that myself or someone else will be able to give you a "close enough for gov-ment work" skill level if you're still curious when the competition is over.

Keep us posted, as I'm sure more of us want to hear how it went. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh, absolutely. It's on October 18th, so it's not even too far away. I'm actually really excited to hear people's ideas of what a score might reflect in Shadowrun terms.

I own a p97 . actuall a p87 with the recall safty upgrade but its the same weapon.

Its really bad at longer range shots. If you have shot a lot of rounds through make sure its really clean befor you go shoot. Its prone to jamming by not fully ejecting the shells. also dont skimp on ammo for the shoot cheap ammo fires dirty and will cause jamming as well.

Well, I used to have a lot of problems with jamming, but that was probably due to a faulty extractor, which would pop out of the pistol every 300 rounds or so. At that time I had all sorts of misfeeds and jams. Ever since I had the extractor replaced, though, I haven't had a single malfunction. Maybe you might consider replacing the extractor on your P97?

Your video game experience will not matter one bit. It doesn't count, except as experience for gaming.

This appears to be a target competition. It'll require a lot of skill and some tuned gear.

Go in with an open mind with the goal of having fun. Keep your mouth shut and your ears open. Listen to the older shooters, because they'll have a wealth of knowledge. If you ask good questions, you'll get more information than you can possibly use.

Also, take some extra ammo. Take a box of 45 ACP and some extra 9mm. I bet if you ask questions, people will offer to let you shoot their guns. Once you handle a Les Baer target gun (or equivalent), you'll dump your Ruger and never look back (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Take pictures of your targets and post them! You could also go get an account at thegunblogs.com and post them there. Mr. Completely runs a monthly postal match that you can participate in--they're usually challenging.

It does not apply. People make the mistake of thinking that TARGET shooting is the same as COMBAT shooting.
When shooting targets for score, I have NEVER grabbed the target, fired from retention, and then stuck the muzzle of the gun through the target in a very violent way. Nor have I ever done dynamic movement during a competition (though some light movement is included in IDPA and Cowboy Action Shooting), along with point shooting and "zippering" the target up from nuts to neck.

The goal of target shooting is to place rounds as precisely as possible on a target for the highest possible score.

The goal of combat shooting is to stop your adversary through force (that's the PC/Court Room way of saying it).

The reality is, you're delivering multiple deadly blows to the enemy. There's no level of force less than lethal when we're talking about real bullets leaving the barrel. Unfortunately, our system has become so silly that we have to call it something other than killing. But, that's the essence of it: do extreme violence first in such a way that you get to go home.

Combat shooting includes tactics, movement, sighted and point shooting, combatives, and fitness.

Therefore, your SR Pistol skill is 0.

If we define level 3 as "Professional" per the rules on page 108 of SR4, then you can get to a three pretty quickly simply by following a series of gun courses (about 6-7 full days of training). Just remember, this is not rocket science; it's pistol gun fighting.

Here's where you'd go to get a 1 in Pistol: http://www.fpftraining.com/courses.html#dhs1. DHS 2 combined with a combatives course (Matt Temkin's Close Quarters Combat course would do) would take you to Pistol 2.

Take this for Pistol 3:

http://www.shivworks.com/pdf/ECQC%20Course%20overview%20.pdf

At this point, you'd have the sighted and point shooting, some movement, some force on force training, combatives, and mindset.

To get to level 4, you'll need a dedicated movement course and lots of point shooting. Roger Phillips' "Point Shooting Progressions" is a movement course. DHS 2 will cover operating at night.

Most of this is variations on the same few themes; mastery just means you take simultaneous action faster under adverse conditions. Shoot 10-20,000 rounds a year (or more) under a program you develop using these courses. That will take you to Pistol 5.

I'm not sure how to get to Pistol 6...get in a bunch of gun fights? There's not much left to do, other than shave hundreths of a second off your times. Do lots of force on force and spend time on combatives.

***

Rifle was mentioned and is another game altogether. Let's talk about "Automatics" as applied to so-called "assault" rifles.

1) Minuteman Rifle from FPF Training is an example of a first course.
2) Magpul Dynamics Carbine course would get you some extra trigger time to get to Automatics 2.
3) Magpul's Advanced Carbine course would get you to Automatics 3.

You'll need to get some long range experience from 300-600 yards. This is important to do, if only for confidence in your abilities. Remember, we're talking about combat shooting, not target shooting...so 18"x24" steel plates are good enough for simulating a human torso.

You'll need to learn room clearing too. You can get that in some of the advanced courses.

Finally, you'll need to diversify your skills by learning other rifle platforms.

I've got 2 counter arguments as to why (at least SR3) Pistols would be reflected by this style of competition. I can't really talk about SR4 since I don't know those rules but in SR3,

1.) Combat Pool, not the Pistols score, is what makes you less likely to be hit in a firefight. The pistols score alone has nothing to do with your ability to avoid or minimize damage. Therefore I would argue that tactics (i.e. room clearing procedures, instinctive taking of cover, etc) would be represented entirely by Combat Pool and not at all by the Pistols score.

2.) The skill descriptions in the SR3 BBB actually uses Pistols as an example of what each skill level is supposed to mean. The examples never touch on tactics, nor really on mindset beyond the mindset used for becoming one with the pistol. So I'd argue that it explicitly states in the SR3 BBB that the Pistols skill is straightforward accuracy, smoothness, and comfort firing a gun, and not combat mindset, room clearing procedure, or fitness.

Nothing to really add; SR3 is different.



Room clearing = tactics with a group. Not really applicable to the argument.

Mindset is roleplayed and determines actions...not really applicable in this context of Combat Pool/Pistol.

Combat Pool = Quickness + Intelligence + Willpower / 2.

Quickness is dependent upon physical fitness. You're fooling yourself if you think that's not the case.

Fitness is essential to any combat activity. Good, speedy movement, on demand in adverse conditions is necessary. The target has to get out of the kill zone or get shot. Moving quickly is better...and doing it repeatedly under stress requires a strong body. I've watched very overweight and out of shape men train in many, many gun courses. They need more frequent rest and they don't move as smoothly. They certainly don't have the explosive movement capability required to get off the X (X is where the bullets are going) in a speedy way, as required to avoid a hit. If you go too slow, the bad guy will work through his OODA Loop (google it) and catch up...which is when you catch a bullet.

Additionally, pistol shooting defined as "straight forward accuracy, smoothness, and comfort firing a gun" is simply another definition of target shooting. It fails to address everything that a Shadow Runner would really be interested in, including:

1) Burst fire (controlled pairs, double taps, emergency drills, zippering)
2) Point shooting (from Enos' Type 2 focus down to Fairbairn/Sykes 1/2 Hip)
3) Weapon presentation (from concealed and open)
4) Explosive "get off the X"
5) Reloads (administrative for target shooting, tactical and emergency for combat)
6) Weapon disarms and retention techniques
7) Drawing to the target from any direction
8) Moving while shooting (obliques, forward, flanking, etc)
9) Shooting from odd positions
10) One handed shooting
11) Contact shooting/CQB (sort of a combination of martial arts with a gun in hand)
12) Gun transitions from strong to weak hand while moving
13) Malfunction drills
14) Various continuums: grip, sight, etc. Google "7677" and "Sight continuum"


I'm sure I'm missing a few things, but you get the idea.

Rule #1 : Listen to & Obey the rules of the range. Read any & all Safety Placards mounted on the walls.
Rule #2: Ask questions. The judges are there to help you. If you are unsure about anything, find out.
Rule #2a : Remember where the bathrooms are, but LEAVE THE WEAPONS ON THE RANGE.
Rule #3: Respect your fellow competitors & they will respect you.
Rule #4: REPEAT RULE #1

Yes, Quickness impacts combat pool (i.e. get off the X), but Quickness is not the Pistols skill. They're linked but they're not one and the same. It is possible for a SR3 character to have Quickness 1 but Pistols 12. It would be weird, but you could crunch the numbers. And that would mean that probably the character in question would be slow as dough on the draw and would have trouble not getting shot, and his maximum possible damage and power bonuses he could get from successes would be less than what a character with the same level of skill but more pool could get. So it's not that the Pistols skill encompasses all these things, but rather that a properly trained shadowrunner would have both a good QUI, an Athletics skill, lots of pool, AND a high Pistols score.

So, yes, the Pistols score alone doesn't provide everything a shadowrunner would need. We can imagine an overweight security guard who is talented with a very steady hand who has Pistols 8 but all his Attributes are 1 so he's still easy for the player characters to paste.

That being said, my original question wasn't whether or not I'd be an awesome shadowrunner whirlwind of death who could solo the Arcology. My original question was simply what my Pistols score would be based on how well I shoot the target paper under mild stress.

Yes, and I answered the question: your Pistol skill is at 0 or 1. Video games do not count as experience. If you took the NRA Basic Pistol course, then I'd place your skill level at 1 due to: 1) familiarity with safety and handling procedures, 2) background information, and 3) the very basic instruction and short shooting session that occurs in the course.

If you want to increase your skill level in a way that would interest a Shadowrunner, then you'll need to follow the training sequence I described. It trains up Combat Pool and Pistol (SR 3) or just dumps the points into Pistols (SR 4). It's really a gun fighting skillset, not a target skill set. Why can't people wrap their heads around the difference?

Because people want to think they're actually cooler, more R0XX0R or something, than reality? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Your gun is a .45 right? I guess I'm just not used to target competitions in .45. I think everything in the Olympics is .22, and US markesmanship stuff did AR-15s.

I would hate to try and train for competition with the cost of .45 ammo. Though I suppose if you're also concealed carrying it could be money well spent.

I don't think most people realize just how innacurate an untrained person with a .45 is. I remember when I took one out for the first time. Couldn't hit anything at 25 yards.

I am not certain where this is going...it's not the cartridge that's the problem. 45 ACP is a very accurate round for target shooting, especially when the rounds are carefully handloaded. Consistency in case weight, case length, bullets, overall length, and powder charge is essential.

For the OP, though, none of this is going to matter. He's going to the match to compete and learn. He'll pick up lots of tips and info from guys who've been competing for a long time.

Hopefully, he'll stick with it. It is a fun sport.

Mostly just that it's expensive to go through .45 ammo. But again if he has the gun for self defense he should train on it anyway.

I've had some training with pistols earlier, though. While I was in college I took 2 semester long classes which met a couple times a week for a few hours where we learned safety, range ettiquette, and practiced a lot of shooting at paper targets 50 feet away. We mostly shot .22s but in each class the instructors had collections they brought to the range so I was lucky enough to try out a variety of handguns.

Also, last year I took a 1 day tactical pistols class which covered the basic aspects of some of the skills you mentioned above.

Since I moved through Nevada I've put maybe a little over 1000 rounds through my Ruger just practicing on my own reviewing the materials from the classes.

Yeah, it's expensive. :/ I've been meaning to start reloading brass, and I've got a lot of collected brass, but I haven't had the chance to get into that yet.

But I always enjoyed shooting a .45 more than other lighter calibers. I feel like a .45 has a steady, almost serene beat that you can get into when shooting. When I shoot a 9mm out of something like a Beretta 92 it feels like a quick, quiet fart...fft, fft, fft. It's hokey. When I shoot 9mm out of a Glock I feel like the pistol kind of jumps in this sharp, spikey way that is hard to flow with and control. But with the .45, it's bakam....bakam....bakam.....you feel that recoil, let your sights fall back on target. It's like the gun gives you a steady, reassuring recoil and calmly lets you know when it's ready to fire again. You focus your breathing in time with the recoil, and it's really similar to meditation. Firing a .45 makes me feel serene.

Awesome! Keep with it. Go take a "Level 2" course somewhere (sometimes they're listed as "advanced").

***

What I like about reloading 45 ACP is the wide case mouth and low pressure. It's very forgiving of mistakes. This allows me to crank out more midrange rounds with fewer QC checks.

Yesterday was the day of the tournament, and here's a little write-up on my results.

HOLY CRAP! This was the first pistol competition I ever participated, and now that I think about it the first official tournament based on physical skills which I ever participated in during my lifetime, but in spite of these factors I scored a bronze medal in the amateur division with a score of 395 out of (I believe) 420! THIRD PLACE WHOOHOO! I'm absolutely elated, especially given how many people had told me the handgun I was using, a Ruger P97DC, is "not considered a match gun" and was probably truthfully one of the more unwieldly pistols present given that it's a .45 with a metal slide and polymer base.

Here are some uploaded pictures from the tournament which shows my scored targets. The event consisted of 6 rounds in 30 seconds at 22 yards, 12 rounds in 40 seconds at 15 yards with a mandatory reload after 6 shots, 12 rounds in 40 seconds at 10 yards with a mandatory reload after 6 shots, and lastly 12 rounds in 40 seconds at 7 yards with a mandatory reload after 6 shots.

Overview picture with both target papers, my trusty Ruger, and if you zoom in on the full sized image you can see the judge's scoring in chalk, and also my handwritten notes about the distances from which I shot at each paper: http://i34.tinypic.com/2803w92.jpg

Here is a close up of the target paper I used for 22 yards and 15 yards: http://i37.tinypic.com/9u82lu.jpg

And here's the paper I used for the closer distances: http://i38.tinypic.com/f553td.jpg

Because this was my first tournament ever I felt extremely nervous. Before the scored shooting began I was warming up and initially my shooting was absolutely terrible. I felt like I was doing everything correctly and my sights looked perfectly lined up, but at first all my shots were going way far to the left. It felt like a bad dream because in spite of my seeming to do everything correctly all my shots seemed to be horrendously, surreally off. I couldn't believe it and at first I started to get more nervous but I forced myself to calm down. Eventually during this warm up I just started loading 3 rounds each into my magazines and really focusing on my breathing in order to calm myself down. I warmed up until the last minute and luckily just as time out I finally was shooting reasonably again after having gone through around 60 rounds. In retrospect it's a good thing I brought 250 rounds with me to the range since I was able to shoot until I was calm.

During the scored shooting events I still felt nervous, although I felt at the time that in spite of my nervous feeling that my shooting was decent for myself. My palms were sweating and even though my hands weren't visibly shaking they felt like they were quivering as I loaded my magazines and performed the mandatory reloads. I think that my reloading was faster than lots of other competitors' because when I heard them reloading they seemed to be taking a long time in compared to me based on auditory clues.

In the end I can't believe I won a medal and finished in third place in the amateur division. I'm extremely surprised and happy because I went into the competition expecting to do horribly due to inexperience.