IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Jürgen Hubert
post Oct 14 2008, 12:40 PM
Post #26


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 104
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,453



QUOTE (Grinder @ Oct 14 2008, 01:06 PM) *
I doubt that any corp would bring an employee to suicide after a project is finished. Waste of ressources.


Well...

Maybe that employee is assigned to a specific project for a limited amount of time, and after this period is over he gets transferred back to another department run by a hated rival of the manager of the project.

Remember, even corporations consist of individuals with their own agendas. And very often, the agendas of the individuals overshadow the goals of the corporation as a whole.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fuchs
post Oct 14 2008, 12:42 PM
Post #27


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,328
Joined: 28-November 05
From: Zuerich
Member No.: 8,014



I think there's an important difference too, in corporate cultures: Do you see your employes as assets of the corporation, or as sort of hired freelancers? A corp, like many japan megacorps, might promote the "family" aspect, treating workers as assets (owned and catered for by the corp). Any investment in the workers like educating them, teaching them new skills, etc. is an investment in the corp.

Others might see employes as hired help, which are used, and fired once they are not needed anymore. Any investment in their education is either needed for a job, or considered incentive to hire the workers, but not a real investment in the corp, since they will be leaving for other pastures in the future.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jürgen Hubert
post Oct 14 2008, 01:06 PM
Post #28


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 104
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,453



QUOTE (Fuchs @ Oct 14 2008, 01:42 PM) *
I think there's an important difference too, in corporate cultures: Do you see your employes as assets of the corporation, or as sort of hired freelancers? A corp, like many japan megacorps, might promote the "family" aspect, treating workers as assets (owned and catered for by the corp). Any investment in the workers like educating them, teaching them new skills, etc. is an investment in the corp.


This might be the overall "business statement" of the company, but in the end, this all depends on how managers are promoted - which in turn influences how they make their decisions regarding daily work practices.

In most cases, managers want to get promoted to better positions as fast as possible. This means that they have to get results as fast as possible, too - or else how can they demonstrate that they deserve such quick promotions? But educating ones subordinates is something that won't give any immediate payoff - by the time the employee has learned enough new skills to make a difference in the way he works, the manager hopes to have gotten a new position. And in the meantime, all this education takes away time which the employee could spend working for him, and thus boost the performance rating of the managed business unit.


So providing education to one's employees, while good for the corporation as a whole, will be resisted by the managers at lower-level positions who actually are in charge of said employees. And even if high-level management manages to boost education within the corporation (by making periodic "education periods" mandatory after a certain amount of time of ordinary work), it's always frustrating to see top talent being headhunted by other corporation, often with the help of shadowrunners.

So at least as the Sixth World is concerned, most corporations will prefer to bring in outside assets rather than boosting the education of their employees to large degrees.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cryptoknight
post Oct 14 2008, 02:42 PM
Post #29


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 697
Joined: 18-August 07
Member No.: 12,735



QUOTE (d1ng0d0g @ Oct 14 2008, 05:23 AM) *
Secondly, the Corp are still required to obey the law,


No they aren't

From BBB,

In the end, the Supreme Court in its supreme wisdom granted multinational corporations the same rights and privileges as foreign governments, establishing corporate extraterritoriality in what came to be known as “The Shiawase Decision.�

After the Shiawase decision, corporate territory is it's own nationality. If they want to legalize prostitution and other things illegal outside of their zones, they are perfectly within their rights to do so.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Blade
post Oct 14 2008, 02:46 PM
Post #30


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,009
Joined: 25-September 06
From: Paris, France
Member No.: 9,466



Yes but not all corporate property is on corporate territory.
For a territory to be an extraterritorial area, the corporation needs to own it and there must be an agreement with the country (for this specific area).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fuchs
post Oct 14 2008, 02:58 PM
Post #31


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,328
Joined: 28-November 05
From: Zuerich
Member No.: 8,014



Prostitution is legal in many western countries.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cryptoknight
post Oct 14 2008, 03:01 PM
Post #32


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 697
Joined: 18-August 07
Member No.: 12,735



QUOTE (Blade @ Oct 14 2008, 09:46 AM) *
Yes but not all corporate property is on corporate territory.
For a territory to be an extraterritorial area, the corporation needs to own it and there must be an agreement with the country (for this specific area).



Where is that in the rules?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Blade
post Oct 14 2008, 03:22 PM
Post #33


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,009
Joined: 25-September 06
From: Paris, France
Member No.: 9,466



Mostly Corporate Download (mostly page 11)

The exact conditions are :
1. The corporation must have been given AA (or AAA) status by the Corporate Court.
2. The Nation-State must have an agreement with the corporation, or a law that accepts extraterritoriality. (If the Nation State refuses corporate extraterritoriality, the corporation can't have an extraterritorial territory. On the opposite, the Nation State can decide that any corporate buildings is automatically granted extraterritoriality)
3. The corporation must own or rent the area, according to national law. The area extends up to 1200m above and under ground.
4. The extraterritorial area must be closed or at least clearly delimited.

Some states can have more restrictions according to the agreement.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daddy's Litt...
post Oct 14 2008, 03:46 PM
Post #34


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 976
Joined: 16-September 04
From: Near my daughters, Lansdale PA
Member No.: 6,668



They can also be spies for the corp getting secrets from others.

Beyond the sex worker aspect, God I hate the term "Comfort Women," and American problems with sex, remember a large part of the AAA corps are Japanese or Asian based. There is a great concept of the professional hostess who will greet the traveller and help him relax and feel at home, make him feel special.

At the higher levels sex is not a part of it. At the lower levels. It is. Are you gonig to tell me that with the rise of Japanese power in the world Renraku or MTC would not have corporate Geishas? Maybe in traditional cloths in Tokyo and adapting to the forign shores maybe the Geisha in the Toronto office is a mammery enhanced blond. The Cairo office has that culture's ideal. That pace having been set by the Japanese, would Ares or SK want to fall behind the ball? Maybe even an AA corp like EBM2.

RL my father and grandfather refuse to answer questions about Geishas. A friend of my husband's who went to Japan on business tells an amusing story about being taken to an geisha house full of women in their 50's.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MJBurrage
post Oct 14 2008, 03:54 PM
Post #35


Moving Target
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 748
Joined: 22-April 07
From: Vermont
Member No.: 11,507



It is basically the same as a country owning land in another country today.

England could buy a piece of property in the US, but unless it is recognized as an embassy (or something similar) it is not granted extraterritoriality status.

I.E. the nation-state does decide the status. However if they do not grant what a Megacorp wants, the Megacorp could use its economic muscle against them, so only the more powerful (or authoritarian) nation-states are likely to contest extraterritoriality status for any property publicly owned by a Megacorp.

I could see Japan and the Tirs all limiting such status to only the large main complexes of foreign Megacorps.

I could see functional democracies only granting such status to facilities that are specifically registered with the government, and marked as such at the perimeter.

And there are many many weak states, where the Megacorps could easily arrange such status after-the-fact if they desire.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DocTaotsu
post Oct 14 2008, 04:32 PM
Post #36


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,991
Joined: 1-February 08
From: Off the rock! Back In America! WOOOOO!
Member No.: 15,601



I think we had a very long thread on this some months back (extraterritoriality) I can't remember what the consensus was but YMMV seems logical.

I've always figured that most corps would demand extraterritoriality standings for their enclaves and housing projects. How else can they happily abuse their workers? By making their housing quarters effectively their own nation states it also prevents non-corp affiliated security or services "accidentally" raiding their facilities. Oops! We were just serving a warrant and must have gotten the wrong address... No we have no idea where the commlink is...

The concept of a comfort woman is certainly a despicable mindset but I'd expect it to be one of the first things to come back in a dystopian future.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MJBurrage
post Oct 14 2008, 05:00 PM
Post #37


Moving Target
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 748
Joined: 22-April 07
From: Vermont
Member No.: 11,507



The whole background behind Comfort Women (as they existed under Japan in WWII) was despicable, but I am not sure if the original user here meant it that way.

I.E. forced prostitution is slavery, and is as vile as a crime can get. Voluntary prostitution on the other hand is a another matter, and arguably more germane to the original question.

I have no doubt that all of the megacorps have employees who's job is to keep other employees happy (and productive). At the lower levels this would suggest brothels, at the mid levels "escorts" (call girls/guys), and at the high levels geishas and courtesans. Me I want the promotion that grants time with Inara Serra (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: I would be surprised if any of the megacorps had more stereotypical "hookers" (i.e. streetwalkers)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DocTaotsu
post Oct 14 2008, 05:09 PM
Post #38


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,991
Joined: 1-February 08
From: Off the rock! Back In America! WOOOOO!
Member No.: 15,601



My thought is that a corps can force a wageslave to endure unsafe, harsh, or demanding working conditions they can certainly demand that they perform other functions as well. With all the other terrible things we envision corps doing I don't find it hard to believe that they have some amount of coerced (perhaps not forced in the traditional sense) prostitution. Perhaps your parents went into horrific debt and passed away before they could pay it off, perhaps a corps HR director didn't like you and decided that you were better off in the "Service" department.

Like I said in the Blindness thread, working for a corps might be terrible but it beats the alternative. A corps prostitute at least has some guarantee for safety (regular testing of clients and corps sec for what it's worth) and a regular paycheck. The casual violence a street prostitute might endure is something they can avoid. Hell, they might even have a chance for promotion or advancement, either in their current job or by testing into other programs (I'm just doing this to pay for college...) The alternative of being a hooker in the Barrens makes corps prostitution a pretty damn good deal really.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
paws2sky
post Oct 14 2008, 06:03 PM
Post #39


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,162
Joined: 16-November 07
Member No.: 14,229



Couple other things to consider

First, the cross-training angle. A corporate "companion" might also have training in therapeutic areas, such as massage, acupressure, etc. The entire experience is good for the client, potentially reducing long term medical costs, which is good for the bottom line.

Also, being an on-call companion might not even be a full time job. After all, most (certainly not all) of that business would likely happen after hours. You could conceivably work a full day, go home to freshen up, then head out to diner with your client(s). Just another form of overtime, ya?

It could even be a selling point for the corp. Why bother dating and risk accidentally becoming attached to someone when all you really feel you need is a good roll in the sheets?

Heck, even the skillwired workforce could get in on the act, if there's a market for companions who are little rougher around the edges. Again, cosmetic surgery is cheap and heals quickly. Instead of getting the cash though, the cash these folks earn probably goes toward paying off their "debt" to the corp. Lower demand for such people, probably, but in terms of profit, its a win-win.

Plus, they have the advantage of skillwires. That means that Bob, the ork mechanical tech from Level 2, could slot a p-fix/skill chip and become Roger, the dashing ork Don Juan. Bob is young and pretty inexperienced, but Roger is trained in multiple techniques... And so on.

-paws

EDIT: added a couple things
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post Oct 14 2008, 09:41 PM
Post #40


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



QUOTE (Fuchs @ Oct 14 2008, 03:58 PM) *
Prostitution is legal in many western countries.


Prostitution is legal in the UK. However, there are strict laws on "managing" prostitution, the gist of which is that someone operating as a prostitute on their own is legal and fine, subject to a few prohibitions on where and how they can advertise, but someone offering the services of someone else or taking a cut of their earnings is subject to any number of legal punishments. Related to this are some laws about several prostitutes operating out of a single premises, again based around the prevention of prostitution that isn't initiated and managed by the prostitute themself. The preceding slightly simplified. The UK laws on prostitution seem relatively sensible to me, though I don't know enough about enforcement in practice across the nation.

Regardless of legality however, the notion of people who cheerfully go into prostitution voluntarily is one that is widespread and mostly wrong.

@DocTaotsu:

Yes, sorry. I did clarify I was making generalisations, but in practice, I probably didn't come off sounding that way. Apologies to American residents of the board that took offense. What I should have said is that what I see is something that is easily found in the USA, rather than talking about what the general state may or may not be. I can't name any country that I can say has a consistently healthy attitude to sex. I find some countries overly discreet on the subject, much of the West frequently celebrating the availability and purely carnal aspects at the cost of real intimacy, and all too few trying to find both freedom and intimacy. I think Western Europe has the best balance I've seen so far, in general, but no country can be said to "get it right," imo. And of course I'm only talking about what I feel is important, others will differ. The freedom to live as one wishes much come first, because everyone desires slightly different things. But for Shadowrun I stop things there and focus on the self-gratification, materialism and objectification because it is dystopian. In reality, there is so much more that can go on from there, imo.

Anyway, wandering dangerously off-topic, now. It seems there's a general consensus that yes, the corps will at least tolerate this and quite likely keep things in house or with trusted sub-contractors.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post Oct 14 2008, 09:43 PM
Post #41


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



QUOTE (paws2sky @ Oct 14 2008, 07:03 PM) *
Plus, they have the advantage of skillwires. That means that Bob, the ork mechanical tech from Level 2, could slot a p-fix/skill chip and become Roger, the dashing ork Don Juan. Bob is young and pretty inexperienced, but Roger is trained in multiple techniques... And so on.


If I hadn't suppressed all knowledge of it, that would remind me of a certain film starring Jude Law and Haley Joel-Osment. *shudder*
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ludomastro
post Oct 14 2008, 10:16 PM
Post #42


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,382
Joined: 22-February 06
From: Shadowland
Member No.: 8,297



QUOTE (Wanderer @ Oct 14 2008, 03:16 AM) *
One single thing by which this is NOT a dystopic dark future is the way the social conservative religious freaks utterly lost the culture wars... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


???

-----

RE: Original Topic

I don't see why not. Afterall, the corps own you in every other way, why not try to own your sex life as well? The impression I get from reading the source material is pretty straightforward - life is not a nice place in 2070. My games are usually a little too cherry but it is easier for me to think about it that way.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Oct 14 2008, 10:42 PM
Post #43


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



QUOTE (knasser @ Oct 14 2008, 05:41 PM) *
Regardless of legality however, the notion of people who cheerfully go into prostitution voluntarily is one that is widespread and mostly wrong.


It depends on how one defines "voluntarily" does it not? It's a job. Like most jobs, most people doing it wouldn't be doing it if they were rich. In this way, it is no different from working the register at Mickey D's. In a capitalist society, one must exclude economic necessity when defining what is involuntary or else the vast majority of citizens would be considered slaves of one sort or another. Rather, the ultimate question of voluntarity must be decided by the question of if there is any other reasonable means by which a person can survive, whether that be choosing another job, living the life of a woodsperson, or stealing a yacht and becoming a pirate on the high seas (surprisingly viable in Miami due to the large number of rich people with poorly guarded luxury vessels).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BookWyrm
post Oct 15 2008, 01:35 AM
Post #44


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,379
Joined: 16-April 02
From: the LI shadows
Member No.: 2,607



I wouldn't put it past the corps that any or all of them would have a 'stable' of "entertainment hostesses"/"hosts" for on retainer.....all the better to keep their employees happy & secure where they are. Let's not forget some choice scenes from the movie Rising Sun, where the American businessmen provided 'hostesses' for their Japanese counterparts after the negotiations were concluded.

It also brings up some possible Contacts (Professional Corporate Hostess/Host, Corp Joyboy/Joygirl) that could help with legwork on corporate extractions & data-smuggling ("How did you know she was that project leader?" "She talks in her sleep.")
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
paws2sky
post Oct 15 2008, 12:53 PM
Post #45


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,162
Joined: 16-November 07
Member No.: 14,229



QUOTE (knasser @ Oct 14 2008, 04:43 PM) *
If I hadn't suppressed all knowledge of it, that would remind me of a certain film starring Jude Law and Haley Joel-Osment. *shudder*


For once, I'm glad I have no idea what someone on Dumpshock is talking about.

BTW, please don't feel the need to enlighten me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-paws
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daddy's Litt...
post Oct 15 2008, 01:05 PM
Post #46


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 976
Joined: 16-September 04
From: Near my daughters, Lansdale PA
Member No.: 6,668



QUOTE (BookWyrm @ Oct 14 2008, 08:35 PM) *
I wouldn't put it past the corps that any or all of them would have a 'stable' of "entertainment hostesses"/"hosts" for on retainer.....all the better to keep their employees happy & secure where they are. Let's not forget some choice scenes from the movie Rising Sun, where the American businessmen provided 'hostesses' for their Japanese counterparts after the negotiations were concluded.

It also brings up some possible Contacts (Professional Corporate Hostess/Host, Corp Joyboy/Joygirl) that could help with legwork on corporate extractions & data-smuggling ("How did you know she was that project leader?" "She talks in her sleep.")
That is what I thought. It would not be a case of forcing people into an unpleasant lifestyle by the evil corp but a possible career path. The very best top fligth being the Geishas who do not have sex, so a young woman with little job skills but willing to take this on for a chance at a SIN (let the irony puns roll) knows if she applies herself can rise above the more menial levels to the better skilled/valued levels or maybe even into managment/training/HR.

In return the corps have 'hostesses' (or hosts) who can work the company image.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BookWyrm
post Oct 15 2008, 03:21 PM
Post #47


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,379
Joined: 16-April 02
From: the LI shadows
Member No.: 2,607



Agreed, DLN.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Oct 15 2008, 03:35 PM
Post #48


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



corp escorts (lets be gender neutrals here, im sure there are some high ranking female exec to), able to protect you both in and outside the bedroom...

this kinda reminds me of the ocp exec toilets btw...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post Oct 15 2008, 05:38 PM
Post #49


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 14 2008, 11:42 PM) *
It depends on how one defines "voluntarily" does it not? It's a job. Like most jobs, most people doing it wouldn't be doing it if they were rich. In this way, it is no different from working the register at Mickey D's. In a capitalist society, one must exclude economic necessity when defining what is involuntary r else the vast majority of citizens would be considered slaves of one sort or another. Rather, the ultimate question of voluntarity must be decided by the question of if there is any other reasonable means by which a person can survive, whether that be choosing another job, living the life of a woodsperson, or stealing a yacht and becoming a pirate on the high seas (surprisingly viable in Miami due to the large number of rich people with poorly guarded luxury vessels).


"Voluntary" must be defined on the basis of excluding "necessity," I agree. But you already explained how to apply a control variable by which to judge this. Having a job might be considered a necessity in our society, but unless prostitution is the only job paying the base line to get by, then we can consider those choosing it to be doing so to some degree of choice. (Let's not get deeply into psychological issues), If prostitution is the only viable option to a person, then the issue of voluntary or not becomes moot, there is only tolerance to a situation or lack of. What I would say are two things. The first is that if it is the only option, then this is a serious fault on the part of society. I do not consider being forced to offer one's body to another to be the same league as being "forced" to hold down a job in retail, for example. The differences are very basic. The second thing I would say is that where there are multiple options, the people choosing prostitution are in a tiny minority and that this is no basis for general statements about prostitution being voluntary or not. As I say, I think the UK laws are fairly well thought out in principle, being based around allowing prostitution but doing whatever can be done to protect people against involuntary participation in this field. As ever, a lot depends on the enforcement of such laws.

Back on Shadowrun, this whole topic touches on an equally significant area... that of what was once known as droigt de seigneur. Or to put it in more modern terms, sexual harassment in the workplace. There have always been liaisons between those in charge and those in service. And they've been initiated from both sides. But it's those where the person in charge uses their position to make the other comply that are serious problems. There are a lot of laws against that in the modern world (for what good or ill they do), but I somehow can't quite see them existing or being applied in the dystopian, extra-territorial world of SR2070 business. The megacorps are probably rife with middle managers or higher who take their pick of those employees that strike their fancy, and when that manager can have their intendee's partner / parent / child / sibling fired or demoted, it really makes things difficult for those around the victim to protect her or him.

So something else to consider...

-K.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Oct 15 2008, 06:04 PM
Post #50


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



QUOTE (knasser @ Oct 15 2008, 12:38 PM) *
As I say, I think the UK laws are fairly well thought out in principle, being based around allowing prostitution but doing whatever can be done to protect people against involuntary participation in this field. As ever, a lot depends on the enforcement of such laws.


I don't think they are, actually. While the laws make sense from that perspective, the sheer logistical nightmare of enforcing them is insurmountable.

It is far easier to closely regulate a small handful of registered brothels than it is to regulate dozens of unregistered freelancers. Regular inspection and strict rules pretty well prevents gross abuses far more easily than a more hands-off approach can. It also protects the public health by ensuring safe practices, greatly reduces the probability of violence by providing hefty security, and feeds the public coffers by allowing heavy taxation.


QUOTE
Back on Shadowrun, this whole topic touches on an equally significant area... that of what was once known as droigt de seigneur. Or to put it in more modern terms, sexual harassment in the workplace. There have always been liaisons between those in charge and those in service. And they've been initiated from both sides. But it's those where the person in charge uses their position to make the other comply that are serious problems. There are a lot of laws against that in the modern world (for what good or ill they do), but I somehow can't quite see them existing or being applied in the dystopian, extra-territorial world of SR2070 business. The megacorps are probably rife with middle managers or higher who take their pick of those employees that strike their fancy, and when that manager can have their intendee's partner / parent / child / sibling fired or demoted, it really makes things difficult for those around the victim to protect her or him.


In Shadowrun, you can hire a team of criminals to off your boss for a reasonable fee, and are almost expected to do so if you are ambitious. Sexual harrasment becomes substantially more dangerous in that context.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 16th May 2025 - 04:04 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.