Woot. Looks pretty nice.

I've noticed some quick issues, but it might be an OpenOffice issue rather than a spreadsheet problem.

First, switching between BP and Karma the Base column doesn't completely disappear or return.
Second, the way the stats are calculated is a little odd. It's seems to assuming a base of 1, and measures increases from there. It looks fine when you're making a human (Oh, I just put the value I want in there), but when making a metahuman, it gets weird. (For example, Elf Agility yields a 2 with a blank cell, 0, or 1 in the cell. Changing it to 2, bumps it up to 3.) It works, it's just odd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I play with it more when I get the chance.

for the record. I didn't think the behind the scenes function of the sheets needed macros, but I was having a hard time getting into the guts without them. This helps tremendously! I was able to open it up and start making a character right away.

That's actually pretty standard chargen/karama-cost rules, just displayed a little unintuitively. It costs the Elf 10 BP to have Agility 3, and it costs a human 10 BP to have Agility 2. It costs them 0 BP to have 2 or 1 respectively. Thus you buy one rank of Agility for 10 BP, and that adds to the elven racial mod (+1) to produce the 2 Agi for the elf. If you put in 2, that means you're buying two ranks, not that you want the stat to be at 2.

It looks fine in Excel, but I may be able to figure out what is causing the problem. Could you tell me more specifically which cells are not appearing correctly?



I am not sure if it was Blakkie or Arturkis who originally implemented the stat raising functionality, but I like the way it works. I thought it was weird at first, but once you get used to it, it totally makes sense.

Here is the reasoning behind it as I see it:
All races have a minimum stat, and they are not all the same. Ie. humans agility minimum is 1, but elves it is 2. You pay nothing for the minimum.

In the original version, if you had 0 in there, then the minimum would be = the minimum -1, but then if you put 1 in there the minimum would be correct. Basically if you didnt put 1 in, you didnt get your free point. I changed it to always give you your free point, even if you neglected to put 1 there.

Now the number you are entering is what you want the base score to be, before adding in racial/infection bonuses. Basically if you want a human to have a 6 str, you put a 6. If you want an elf to have a 6 agility, you need only put 5, because they get +1 from race. Either way, the 6th point is the one that costs 25 bp.

The real benefit of this method is that you dont have to know what modifiers your character has or figure them in at all, you just decide how many building points you want to put into the attribute, and it figures out the rest!

Now for the Karma column, it could make sense to instead list the racially modified stat, since that is what you are paying karma for, but to remain consistent with the BP column, I left it in the same style, where you enter 1 through 6 then it adds the racial modifier before it calculates the karma cost.


Thanks for the encouragement!

Perhaps in the near future I will get a desktop computer at home and put open office on it, so I can test my sheet in that environment.

The most confusing part is, the first point is free, which throws alot of people at first.

I open the sheet and say enable macros and do not update links to external files.
Okay weird. Switching between the sheet and this screen to post caused the cells that didn't revert to revert. Clearly an OpenOffice issue. What must be happening is that the macro is running but it may be too much for Open Office to refresh at one go. Thinking about it, it's surpising the macro is even running. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


The logic is easy for an elf, but what about races that get a penalty? By that logic, a dwarf shouldn't be charged for reaction until the 3rd point (2-1 =1 which is free) ...

In my previous spreadsheet (just worked for BP and was much more manual), I had a base value and max value displayed then a column for added points (generated an error message if you went over) The columns from my spreadsheet were Race, Base, Max, Points, Base Value, Magic, Cyber, Total and (BP) Cost

Now that I see how it works, it's easy enough, but just not very intuitive.

I have it on my U3 drive, takes up about 220 megs on a 1 gig stick. (as an aside, my USB drive was made by Ativa and I was able to upgrade from 1.2 (?) to 1.6* with the Sansoft Cruzer install. It might be possible to use the same install to turn a standard jump drive into a U3 drive.) I also have Opera, Firefox and XnView (comes in surprisingly handy at work) on it as well.

I had actually considered maybe developing an SR4 character generator for the U3, but I didn't want my name on a list of developers. It might also have been not free or something. Oh well. The spreadsheet makes it unnecessary anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

*v1.6 is Vista Compatable

Edit:
How do I manipulate the cost modifier flags? Currently, with everything set to false (inlcuding Karma System), it says an elf costs 60 BP and a gnome costs 25 BP ...

You are talking about cells not appearing correctly when switching between karma_build_system and back. This has nothing to do with macros. A macro can be used in the form of a checkbox that is linked to the cell, but the formatting is accomplished with conditional formatting on all the BP cells, which has a formula that is based off of the 'Karma_Build_System', which is defined in a true false cell beneath the Options box. If you open the sheet directly after downloading it, and select 'disable macros', the Box of controls should be displaced and the true/false cells revealed. Simply change those cells and the conditional formatting will do the rest.

What you likely need to do is trigger a formula update/refresh, but someone else will have to tell you how to do that in open office.

The issue is not lack of space, but that I work on the spreadsheet with a laptop from my workplace, so I am not supposed to install 3rd party apps like open office (I could, but I wont). I think Open Office is fantastic, and used to use it before my home computer died.


See p. 73 of the SR Core book. Races have minimum stats, and that is what the sheet goes off of. A dwarf's minimum reaction is 1, and max is 5. If you put 5 in it, it costs 55 (2-4 = 3 x 10 = 30 + 25 for 5th point is 55). Negatives dont make attributes harder to purchase in SR4, they just set the limit.

What would be more logical to you? If you could setup a simple example of what your ideal functionality is, just setup a cell for agility, with a cell that can be changed between human, elf and troll, which calculates BP and/or Karma cost, and facilitates both BP and Karma (BP representing starting attribute, Karma representing a raise after creation through earned karma). If I like what you have Ill use it to improve the Character Generator.

Initially, I was recounting steps from open to close. The cells are refreshed but the display isn't until I alt-tab or do something else that causes a refresh. The problem is how much can be refreshed in one go with OpenOffice, not a spreadsheet glitch. In other words, nevermind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


That was my point about U3. It installs on the jump drive, not the computer. And you can take it with you and use the same software on other computers. No install, just plug it in and it should autorun like a CD giving you a second "start menu" in your system tray to run apps you have on the U3 drive. The only thing is I don't know if you need a U3 drive to begin with or can convert an existing drive to U3. Either way, a 1 gig U3 drive is like $10

It's worth looking into, particularly since with a bigger drive, you can store your non-work files on it if you're not working on an external hard drive.

portable apps branced off from U3 it's all free open source apps open office included. It will run off any drive and is easly cumstomisable. You don't even need the menu it run the programs. But it is a bit techincal with out the menu.

It could be that my chargen's version is not up to date but:

1) the Accel field(s) do nothing when the veicle is selected

2) in the speed field is shown the running accel value instead of the veicle's speed value

3) the "Used Slots" field keeps displaing a "0" (Wow unlimited modification potenzial)

4) the Thundercloud Contrail (Arsenal p.108) and the Hyundai Shin-Hyung (Arsenal p.109) should have 10 and 14 slots (body+4)

Just my 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , keep up the good work

I went through and fixed all the mess you found, and the Vehicles page will be in much better shape with version Beta 6.
Thanks for help with Beta Testing AllTheNothing!

Beta Tester?......... I thought I was a Bug Hunter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ; speaking seriously with all the effort you're putting in it ,for the sake of all of us, that's a very little thing.

Any indiscretion on Beta 6?

I don't know if they are somewhere else, but under armor mods I did not see Shock Frills

Now that we have a character sheet (Good work!)

Is there any way to send the character to text?

Thanks

Yes, all we have to do is decide on a format. This is vital.. it cannot be altered with every release the way the character generator is.

I would like to create an SR4 standard character file format. So far I can think of the following requirements:

It must be ascii/ansi compatible. This keeps it simple to read/write from any programming language. Ideally someone could create a character on the spreadsheet, then save it to a file and import it into a C++ or Java Character generator.

It must be written so that new fields can be added without breaking previous versions. For example, if the first version includes attributes but not calculated attributes, and then later we decide to include calculated attributes, we need to be able to add calculated attributes to the file and have the file still readable by programs written to work with the old version.

So basically, two rules:
1. TEXT
2. Backwardly compatible


I was thinking of something kind of like config files, with bracketed headers, then variable names, followed by = then their value:

[Attributes]
strength=4
agility=3
[Qualities]
cyberware compatibility=10
vindictive=5 # Random comment here
[Resources]
debt paid=0


With the above example, I would have the following guidelines:
1. All data must be under a header
2. Headers must be in square brackets []
3. Each item must have a variable followed by an equal '=' sign, followed by a value
4. # can be used for comments

Once we agree on a format, I will create a new (hidden) worksheet which lists all variables, then has a cell that links to where the values of that variable is on the sheet, then has some formatting cells. Then end result will be outputted on a visible sheet, which can manually be exported by the user, or can be exported via a macro.

I could then create a macro which reads a data file and overwrites all data on the sheet with data from the file. After that, users could easily export/import their characters between new versions of the sheet (woohoo). If any good character generator programs are created, they can write them to import these sr4 character sheets.

Oh, I would want to use an extension like 's4c' to indicate it is a 'Shadowrun 4th edition Character' file. Or it could simply be a .txt file extension.

Any thoughts or input from the community on this? I havent started implementing any of this, so I am very open to alternative ideas.

Why not XML (or XHTML)?

The XML/XHTML files themselves are text files and they can include formatting. You should be able to separate the formatting from the crunch enough to read fairly well in a text editor. The downside is many automated XML "authoring" programs (MS) will add extra junk. I don't know if a macro could do it without said junk.

Never used XML/XHTML formats so I can't speak about them but using .txt files is quite easy with Java, for both input output, all you need to do is chose a non-ambigue format convention and code the file's writer/reader according to said convenction (and maybe make their source code pubblicly aviable so the standard can be mantained with minumum effort.

To Damien:
A was wandering if it is possible use the E1 cell (Main_Sheet) to implement the "Not Always Quite Human" option for shapeshifters.
By the way I'm tryng to create a surged character but I can't find SurgeX/ClassXSurge/Changeling/WhateverApropriate quality; am I blind or I just have to wait for relises to come?

ATN

XML is a good bet would have to be hand made with notepad or such to dejunk. But it should work well hell I know of games that uses such a system but others that uses the header system. XML is harded to set up but should be easier to manipulate though in not sure how readable they are to different languages. where and a planer version would be easier to import in to anything.

I am not sure what you are going for here. Cell E1 is for Infection, and since Dracoforms are immune to infection and can also have other races, it is a convinient place for them also. Shifters are a race, so I have placed them in races.

If you are referring to the way that Dracoforms display their modified form stats, then it does not really apply since the attributes affect both human and animal forms, with exception to movement rates (not on this sheet) and claws (which are listed in qualities, and basically just make you do physical instead of stun).

I guess I am asking, how would you like me to change the sheet and how do you think the changes will make the sheet better serve shifters while still serving all other character types?



You are not blind. Surge characteristics are on the data sheets, but have no place in the spreadsheet yet. Mostly I have not decided where to put them. Any suggestions?


I am open to using xml. Could you provide reasons why XML would work better than plain text with config style formatting for this specific process? XML is very versatile, but our needs are so simple, I think I would like to keep it as simple as possible. Give me reasons and I will weigh it.

Oh, and I am sorry to answer three different questions with questions... I promise I am not attempting to seem messianic!

I'd suggest a separate tab. Selecting the Class I, II, or III Surge qualities would enable it (or you could add a dropdown similar to the magical ability drop down to select it, rather than grouping it with the other positive qualities). Alternatively, if you do end up moving skills off of the front page as someone suggested, you could make it be a region on the main page matching the regular quality boxes (which can get moved to the left).

Yeah, seems I left those out. Must have subconsciously left them out on purpose because I think they are realllllly dumb. Feel free to unhide and update the gear_data sheet to add these in.

I am feeling surge characteristics, Nanoware, and 'Save Character to Text File' options in the sheets near future.

to Damien:
As you say Drakes are immune to HMHVV, and if a character with latent dracomorfosis gets infected said character is royaly screwed about being a drake, so drakes and infected are mutualy exclusive and using the same cells makes sense; but shapeshifters are NOT human so they can't get infected either (Human Meta-Human Vampiric Virus), there is also absolutely no way that they can be drakes (Runner Companion p.86, at the end of the first paragraph of "Not Human"), in E1 Cell there's nothing that can be applaied to shapeshifters (except "NONE") and that cell comment states:
"Select Infection here. Most infections are race-specific. If this cell is highlighted, then your race does not match with your infected type."
Being the "Not Always Quite Human" option a shifter-only I thought that it could be put there with minimal effort, metahumans have their metahuman-only stuff and so shifters, no way anyone can have both.
For the difference on the sheet I'm refering to adjusting attributes and abilities; the "Not Always Quite Human" (RC p.87) states "A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form." which is ambigue but the devs have let to be intended that it applaies also to attributes (which makes sense, aside the "were-bear types" all the shapeshifters come with built-in low-light, why should they pay for shifting 20 BP for resemble an elf (or 10 for orks) when they gain nothing).
Even than if you think it can be implemented in a better way (or that should not be implemented at all) I won't complain about it, you ARE working for us after all.

To Dumori:
You have convinced me: I know nothing about it so I'd be better to correct such flaw; any suggestion on where can I retrive any material on it?

Personally, I tend to prefer plaintext to XML, just because the plaintext is easier to read. But for something as complicated and as structured as a character, XML seems to make more sense to me. Expecially for the gear section.

Say you have three pieces of armor (body, helmet, and a piece of PPP). Each of which has a number of armor mods. In a plaintext file, you'd have to come up with some way of denoting which mods were on which armor at which rating. This might involve indenting, or putting a - before each line, or something. But then you get into custom-built weapons, or vehicles, or other heavily modded things, and that gets unwieldy rapidly. XML inherently supports this kind of nested structure.

Ah, modded items. That does present us with a multi-level item that is not easily expressed in a .ini style text file.

Here is how I would do it:

[Custom Weapon 1]
base=SMG
mod1=ExtendedClip
mod2=Sling
maxslots=7
name=Ares Hellfire
description=An smg designed by Wolf, based on the old Uzi III model.
[Custom Armor 1]
armor=Lined Coat
mod1=Insulated
mod1rating=4

But perhaps this could be expressed in xml style:


The benefit I see from xml is that there is no limit to how many mods/custom items you have, whereas the .ini example names the group after the mod/custom item number.

In my opinion it would be easier to code around the Custom Weapon limit in an ini file than it would be to organize this with xml, but perhaps the xml would look more professional and be a little more standard?

Coding in xml is going to take me longer, and be less readable by a text editor, and more error prone when edited by xml editors...

I will work on some more complete samples and see how it goes. I may decide to use both methods and see which is more quickly embraced by other Character handling programs...

My current plan is to have a sheet with data like this:
(this will make more sense if you copy it and import it into an excel sheet as tab delimited text)


When outputting to text, it will sort the list by Text Group. When xml it will organize by the XMLtag. A macro will have to be used for XML. I believe I can rig the sheet to output the text version to a blank sheet which could be Exported as text without a macro, although Macroing it might be easier.

I'd go with XML... but design the DTDs and other format documents first so you have a standard to operate with.

Then anybody could apply an XSLT to the XML file and make multiple different character sheets from the same data.