 Dodge vs Gymnastics Dodge |
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 Oct 31 2008, 08:23 AM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,768 Joined: 31-October 08 From: Redmond (Yes, really) Member No.: 16,558  |
What are the pros and cons of each? I only have a general idea, and want to make the "right" choice during character creation. I build characters for fun, and haven't gotten around to playing yet, so until I find a local game I'm focusing on building better characters.
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Oct 31 2008, 08:41 AM
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#2
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If you have both Gymnastics and a Melee skill, Dodge is largely superfluous. Note that the Dodge skill is still used with some vehicle tests though, and in these cases cannot be interchanged with Gymnastics.
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Oct 31 2008, 08:48 AM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,192 Joined: 6-May 07 From: Texas - The RGV Member No.: 11,613 |
Because, as you have doubtlessly noted, all Olympic gymnasts prove to be the best run-n-gun fighters in the world. Their ability to shoot-n-move while evading incoming fire and melee attacks via their supreme acrobatics has proven the US Olympic gymnastics program to be the best recruiting grounds for units such as NavSpecWarDevGru (Seal 6) and Delta Force.
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Oct 31 2008, 08:57 AM
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#4
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Basically, under certain circumstances in melee combat, Dodge doubles itself. Gymnastics doesn't do that. So, if you intend to be on full defense in melee a lot, the Dodge skill makes sense. If you don't, then Gymnastics is usually a better choice, since you can dodge *and* do cartwheels.
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Oct 31 2008, 09:07 AM
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#5
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 31 2008, 07:57 PM)  Basically, under certain circumstances in melee combat, Dodge doubles itself. Gymnastics doesn't do that. So, if you intend to be on full defense in melee a lot, the Dodge skill makes sense. Pretty much any time that you could use Reaction + Dodge + Dodge for Full Defense, you could also opt to use Reaction + Melee skill + Gymnastics for the same result. |
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Oct 31 2008, 09:25 AM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Dodge can be specialized for either ranged or melee dodge, giving 2 more dice for a mere 2 BP. On the other hand, a lot of gear gives modifiers to gymnastic.
A GM might also consider that Gymnastic dodge can't be used in all situations, or will at least suffer negative modifiers when the character doesn't have enough space to cartwheel around. |
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Oct 31 2008, 09:28 AM
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#7
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Oct 31 2008, 04:48 AM) Because, as you have doubtlessly noted, all Olympic gymnasts prove to be the best run-n-gun fighters in the world. Their ability to shoot-n-move while evading incoming fire and melee attacks via their supreme acrobatics has proven the US Olympic gymnastics program to be the best recruiting grounds for units such as NavSpecWarDevGru (Seal 6) and Delta Force. Gymkata. The skill of gymanstics. The kill of karate. It is perfectly plausible. |
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Oct 31 2008, 10:10 AM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,192 Joined: 6-May 07 From: Texas - The RGV Member No.: 11,613 |
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 31 2008, 01:28 AM) If "as exemplified by one of the worst martial arts movies of the 1980s with horrible choreography and the all but unlimited ability to make retakes until it looks semi-cool" is your definition of "perfectly plausible" then you're quite correct. Unfortunately, it's not my definition so...yeah. |
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Oct 31 2008, 10:20 AM
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#9
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It isn't like those Special Forces dudes are actually 'dodging bullets'. They are just experienced at moving out of the line of fire, which is emulated by the Gymnastics skill (and works in a similar manner in melee combat if the character also possesses a melee skill).
There are some things that Dodge can do that Gymnastics cannot, and vice versa, but there is a fair amount of overlap between the two skills. |
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Oct 31 2008, 01:22 PM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,188 Joined: 9-February 08 From: Boiling Springs Member No.: 15,665 |
Dodge might be a better choice if you have Move-by-Wire. If you have Raptor Cyberlegs then Gymnastics dodge would server you better.
Then again, if you take MBW AND Raptor Cyberlegs then you get +2 no matter which way you go. So if you're in that boat then take both and specialize in Ranged Dodge so you can get it to a higher level cheaper. |
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Oct 31 2008, 01:25 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Don't forget synthecardium (and NEO-EPO if you want to go the extra mile) for Gymnastic Dodge.
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Oct 31 2008, 01:30 PM
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#12
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The Adept Power Improved Ability is cheaper for Gymnastics (.25 PP/lvl) than it is for Dodge (.5 PP/lvl).
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Oct 31 2008, 01:36 PM
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#13
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 02:07 AM) Pretty much any time that you could use Reaction + Dodge + Dodge for Full Defense, you could also opt to use Reaction + Melee skill + Gymnastics for the same result. You can? My reading says nothing of the sort, you just get Gymnastics. Doesn't change the fact that gymnastics is still more useful, and usually the difference will be 3 dice or less. |
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Oct 31 2008, 01:47 PM
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#14
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 Core Rulebook pg 151) Full defense can either be taken as a full dodge, full parry, or gymnastics dodge. Full Dodge: Character on full defense may add their Dodge skill to their dice pool when defending against incoming attacks. So a character on full defense against a ranged attack rolls Reaction + Dodge, whereas a character on full defense against a melee attack could roll Reaction + Dodge + Dodge, or Reaction + melee combat skill + Dodge. Full dodge may be used against both ranged and melee attacks. Full Parry: Characters who go on full parry roll their Reaction + (melee combat skill x 2) against any and all melee attacks made against them. Full parry may not be used against ranged attacks. Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks. Note that in each case the base Dice Pool for melee combat is still Reaction + Skill (either dodge or Melee). The Full Defense modifiers (Dodge or Melee skill or Gymnastics depending on type of defense being used) are added to the base Pool(s). In melee combat, Gymnastics Dodge does not just add Gymnastics to Reaction alone. |
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Oct 31 2008, 01:51 PM
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#15
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 06:47 AM) Note that in each case the base Dice Pool is still Reaction + Skill (either dodge or Melee). The Full Defense modifiers (Dodge or Melee skill or Gymnastics depending on type of defense being used) are added to the base Pool(s). Gymnastics Dodge does not just add Gymnastics to Reaction alone. No offense, but I'm not seeing it. It looks to me like the "triple threat" of getting three stats to roll is restricted to the use of the Dodge skill. Which actually means the Dodge skill has a use in certain circumstances. The way you propose it, Dodge is completely useless, while this way makes it mostly useless. |
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Oct 31 2008, 01:55 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
Yeah, I know Full Parry is Reaction+Melee Skill+Melee Skill., but this is only usable in melee.
You can, though, as far as I can tell, for full melee defense roll Reaction+Melee Skill+Gymnastics or Dodge, whichever you have. I always assumed Gymnastics Dodge replaced Dodge. I also don't know why you have to only be melee to take it; someone with Dodge(Ranged) 4(+2) still has less full ranged defense than someone with Gymnastics 5(Synthacardium 3), and it actually specifies that Gymnastics Dodge may be added to melee or ranged attacks. Now, for someone with no Synthacardium and Move By Wire, yeah, Dodge would probably be better(and again, not usable if driving something.) But yeah, each have their perks, as said(Dodge can be specialized and you can do it in vehicles, Gymnastics can have things like Synthacardium added.) |
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Oct 31 2008, 01:56 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 976 Joined: 16-September 04 From: Near my daughters, Lansdale PA Member No.: 6,668 |
I think 'dodge' is just throwing yourself down like most action Rambo or John McClane.
Gymnastic dodge I think of as the sort of anime type move. |
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Oct 31 2008, 01:57 PM
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#18
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
From the 4th Edition Shadowrun FAQ ...
QUOTE (SR4 FAQ) What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?
Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics. |
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Oct 31 2008, 02:04 PM
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#19
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 06:57 AM) From the 4th Edition Shadowrun FAQ ... QUOTE What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)? Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics. OK, that settles that. Thank you. |
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Oct 31 2008, 02:09 PM
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#20
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 1 2008, 12:51 AM) It looks to me like the "triple threat" of getting three stats to roll is restricted to the use of the Dodge skill. All Full Defense dice pools consist of three parts. Full Dodge is Reaction + Dodge + Dodge Full Parry is spelled out in the rules as Reaction + Melee skill + Melee skill. And Gymnastics Dodge is as I listed earlier. Edit: I note that you posted, but I still wanted to address the Full Parry issue. Oh, and you're welcome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Oct 31 2008, 02:21 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 5-April 08 From: Canada Member No.: 15,852 |
Wait, what's the reason to take dodge? Aside from specialization that is.
Edit: Since I don't wish to make a second post. Can someone explain to me how using the Two Weapon Style ability to make a full gymnastic defense because you have an off hand weapon is supposed to work? |
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Oct 31 2008, 02:24 PM
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#22
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Vehicle maneuvers.
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Oct 31 2008, 02:25 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 5-April 08 From: Canada Member No.: 15,852 |
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 07:24 AM) Vehicle maneuvers. Anything the swordfighter adept is gonna care about? |
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Oct 31 2008, 02:28 PM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Nothing! Gymnastics is better in pretty much every way.
But he really might very well care if he does ever have to make a Crash test while driving. |
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Oct 31 2008, 02:33 PM
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#25
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Keep in mind though, that without Dodge, if your swordmaster is caught without a blade in hand, then he has to either rely on a secondary melee skill, or suck it up and not use Full Defense.
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