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The Jopp
post Dec 5 2008, 12:00 PM
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What are peoples view on the Shapechange spells.

Could I transform myself into ANY non-awakened animal? Even extinct ones?

For some reason I find the notion of becoming a Pterodactyl rather appealing if I need to fly and lift something at the same time.

Or become a T-rex when hungry ^_^
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Fortune
post Dec 5 2008, 12:52 PM
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Even if it were possible, the spell's Body Attribute limitation would probably put a damper on the whole T-Rex idea.
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Ryu
post Dec 5 2008, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 5 2008, 01:52 PM) *
Even if it were possible, the spell's Body Attribute limitation would probably put a damper on the whole T-Rex idea.

And this is why the Fomori should have beaten the crap out of the Danaan...
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Wesley Street
post Dec 5 2008, 02:34 PM
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I would think it reasonable that Shapechange be limited to a) non-awakened critters that meets the Body Attribute limitation and b) the PC be familiar with the creature, be it through study or first-hand knowledge. So a zoologist mage would have a slightly larger portfolio of usable forms than a crazy cat-lady mage. And by that logic a metahuman-sized dinosaur wouldn't be unreasonable if the PC were a paleontologist.
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Hatspur
post Dec 5 2008, 05:27 PM
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My Dinosaur Knowledge is a little weak, but wouldn't that open the door for Velociraptor Trolls that can run really fast?
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Neraph
post Dec 5 2008, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE (Hatspur @ Dec 5 2008, 11:27 AM) *
My Dinosaur Knowledge is a little weak, but wouldn't that open the door for Velociraptor Trolls that can run really fast?

Velociraptors are actually only like 4 feet tall, the ones in Jurassic Park are actually megaraptors. In any event, SURGE'd Satyr Legs or Raptor Modular Cyberlegs will get you that effect as well.
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Wesley Street
post Dec 5 2008, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE (Hatspur @ Dec 5 2008, 12:27 PM) *
My Dinosaur Knowledge is a little weak, but wouldn't that open the door for Velociraptor Trolls that can run really fast?

Is that any different than a human shape-changing into a cheetah or a gazelle?
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TheOOB
post Dec 5 2008, 07:37 PM
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I think it's fair to say if you have never seen a real version of the animal, you can't possibly shift into it, a trip to a couple of zoos would get you most forms you would ever care to use, but unless you can find someone running Jurassic Park, you probably have never seen a T-Rex and couldn't manipulate magic to turn you into something you have never seen.
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Thadeus Bearpaw
post Dec 5 2008, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (TheOOB @ Dec 5 2008, 01:37 PM) *
I think it's fair to say if you have never seen a real version of the animal, you can't possibly shift into it, a trip to a couple of zoos would get you most forms you would ever care to use, but unless you can find someone running Jurassic Park, you probably have never seen a T-Rex and couldn't manipulate magic to turn you into something you have never seen.


Would seeing the bones, and CGI trideo of the animal not be enough?
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TheOOB
post Dec 5 2008, 07:56 PM
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Well, the bones are not the animal, only part of the animal, and I think it's been established that seeing a trideo of something doesn't count as seeing it for magical purposes. Without having seen the animal, you can only transform into the idea of a dinosaur, not an actual dinosaur, and I personally don't think a spell designed to turn you into real animals could do that. Now if you made a spell to turn you into a creature of your own design...
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Stahlseele
post Dec 5 2008, 08:01 PM
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while we're at it . . with SR's tech and Magic . . WHY NOT MAKE JURASSIC PARK?
well, aside from the obvious flaw with the traitor and breaking out dinos and the such . .
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Thadeus Bearpaw
post Dec 5 2008, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (TheOOB @ Dec 5 2008, 01:56 PM) *
Well, the bones are not the animal, only part of the animal, and I think it's been established that seeing a trideo of something doesn't count as seeing it for magical purposes. Without having seen the animal, you can only transform into the idea of a dinosaur, not an actual dinosaur, and I personally don't think a spell designed to turn you into real animals could do that. Now if you made a spell to turn you into a creature of your own design...


True, but under that line of reasoning you don't see a great deal of an animal on the surface when you see it in a zoo for a few seconds, you don't see its bones, DNA, musculture, etc. Maybe you get at least the DNA, the general shape, etc of the dinosaur?
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Apathy
post Dec 5 2008, 08:55 PM
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You see the aura of the animal, which is the important thing as far as magic is concerned. Knowledge of the animal's aura gives you all the info you need to guide the spell that shapechanges you. By this logic, seeing a video of an animal would be insufficient because the video doesn't show the aura. Similarly, seeing a dead animal wouldn't be sufficient, because dead critters have no aura either.
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Thadeus Bearpaw
post Dec 5 2008, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (Apathy @ Dec 5 2008, 02:55 PM) *
You see the aura of the animal, which is the important thing as far as magic is concerned. Knowledge of the animal's aura gives you all the info you need to guide the spell that shapechanges you. By this logic, seeing a video of an animal would be insufficient because the video doesn't show the aura. Similarly, seeing a dead animal wouldn't be sufficient, because dead critters have no aura either.



Right right, astral sight. That's a good argument.
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ludomastro
post Dec 5 2008, 09:04 PM
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I would argue that even with a live tiger to study, when you change into one, you aren't any more tiger than I am in my normal meat body. You approximate a tiger. The more familiar you are with it the more closely you can approximate the animal in question. So, yes, you could theoretically change into something approaching a raptor but it wouldn't really be a raptor. It might not even work well.

As with almost all things on DS, YMMV.

P.S. This viewpoint is based in part on the description of shape changers in the Dresdenverse.
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Thadeus Bearpaw
post Dec 5 2008, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Alex @ Dec 5 2008, 03:04 PM) *
I would argue that even with a live tiger to study, when you change into one, you aren't any more tiger than I am in my normal meat body. You approximate a tiger. The more familiar you are with it the more closely you can approximate the animal in question. So, yes, you could theoretically change into something approaching a raptor but it wouldn't really be a raptor. It might not even work well.

As with almost all things on DS, YMMV.

P.S. This viewpoint is based in part on the description of shape changers in the Dresdenverse.


I know people are vaguely hostile to D&D on this forum and I fucking hate 4th edition, but I used to run Druid changings and the like like that. If you were a druid turned into a bear and had sex with your bear animal companion (this came up in a game actually) if somehow they were able to breed (magic) than it'd be a half-goblin half bear not a full bear, where as if you polymorpher you literally turned into a bear. I think for shadowrun the functional approximation without it actually being the case is better.
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Wesley Street
post Dec 5 2008, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (Apathy @ Dec 5 2008, 03:55 PM) *
You see the aura of the animal, which is the important thing as far as magic is concerned. Knowledge of the animal's aura gives you all the info you need to guide the spell that shapechanges you. By this logic, seeing a video of an animal would be insufficient because the video doesn't show the aura. Similarly, seeing a dead animal wouldn't be sufficient, because dead critters have no aura either.

I like this line of thought. It makes the most sense to me.
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Muspellsheimr
post Dec 5 2008, 09:59 PM
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By RAW, this is entirely possible - assuming you have the stats for the dinosaur.

I do like the ruling that you must have Assensed the creature you wish to change into, but am hesitant to use it, partially because it hurts Mystic Adepts somewhat, & partially because you would be unable to use it to change into extinct animals (barring recently extinct).
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Larme
post Dec 5 2008, 10:15 PM
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The question should be answered by asking: what is the basis for the spell to work? People have been assuming that it's the user's own knowledge of the animal. That doesn't seem very practical because there's a huge line-drawing issue. How much do I have to know about cats before I can become a cat? Must I meet a cat in person? Is seeing them on the matrix enough? If I'm blind from birth and I've never seen a cat, will shapechange not work for me? Will my cat come out in bizarre colors because I don't even know what colors are? Or maybe it will be monochromatic? If I'm dyslexic, will it say weom instead of meow?

The last one aside, I think these are all big problems with basing the shapechange on the caster's knowledge of the animal. The spell doesn't specify that you must have knowledge of the animal, so why should you? Obviously you have to know it exists, because otherwise you wouldn't know that you wanted to shapechange into it. But other than that, I don't see the caster's intent as being central. If it was, then I should be able to change into imaginary animals too -- if my knowledge of and desire to become an animal makes me become that animal, why couldn't I shift into a cabbit (half cat, half rabbit)? Obviously, you couldn't do that because the spell requires a natural animal, but that begs the question. It couldn't be based on your lack of knoweldge about non-natural animals, because if that were the case then you could genetically engineer a cabbit, study it, and then shift into one.

The best explanation is based on the text. It says that the animal must be natural. But dinosaurs no longer exist -- can something that's nonexistent be natural? The only way for dinosaurs to walk again would be for them to be genetically reconstituted, which would make them decidedly non-natural creates (speaking from the perspective of the Astral, which somehow knows when you insert non-natural DNA into your genes, despite it being made of the exact same chemicals as natural DNA). I think that, per RAW, natural animals must be ones that are naturally animals in the present day, as opposed to being naturally fossilized bones. As for why it has to be a natural animal, and how the astral might know the difference between a living and extinct natural animal, you can chalk that up to the astral not making sense under most circumstances (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[[zomg, crazy idea: spirit posesses dino skeleton = undead t-rex!]]
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WeaverMount
post Dec 5 2008, 10:21 PM
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I would rule this by tradition. A Hermetic/Chaos mage really ought to able to /know/ an animal via technological means. A shaman might work with a beast spirit for a while before it is "gifted" with the privileged of shape shifting. Also really don't see anything wrong with removing extent animals. As a matter of fact I kind of like the idea of extinct animal spirits retreating the meta planes of things that should not be and mingling with all the wrong things that are there. A harbinger currier pigeon returning to physical out of vestigial loyalty to physical reality warning of coming horror that even it can't stomach that's a cool adventure seed
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WeaverMount
post Dec 5 2008, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Dec 5 2008, 05:15 PM) *
not making sense under most circumstances (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
[[zomg, crazy idea: spirit posesses dino skeleton = undead t-rex!]]


Raptor-zombie-Jesus ftw
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Metapunk
post Dec 5 2008, 10:48 PM
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are there no chances for spirits of extinct animals being around the astral plane able to teach a mage about themselves?
and I personally kinda like the idea with assensing what you turn into. BUT I also really like the idea of turning into a raptor:P
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Mickle5125
post Dec 5 2008, 10:54 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 5 2008, 03:59 PM) *
I do like the ruling that you must have Assensed the creature you wish to change into, but am hesitant to use it, partially because it hurts Mystic Adepts somewhat, & partially because you would be unable to use it to change into extinct animals (barring recently extinct).


To create the spell, you have to have assensed the creature. After that, it's a simple matter of following the formula. Only hurts Mystic Adept spellcrafters.
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crizh
post Dec 5 2008, 11:21 PM
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QUOTE (Metapunk @ Dec 5 2008, 10:48 PM) *
are there no chances for spirits of extinct animals being around the astral plane able to teach a mage about themselves?
and I personally kinda like the idea with assensing what you turn into. BUT I also really like the idea of turning into a raptor:P


Astral Quest!
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Stahlseele
post Dec 5 2008, 11:34 PM
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Step 1: Ostrich
Step 2: Reptile
Step 3: ???????
Step 4: Profit!!!
------------------
Combine Reptile with Ostrich and you're done?
You don't have to actually work like the thing you wanna turn into.
you just wanna get a body that allows you to do the things that you wanna do . .
we've had this discussion once i think.
shapeshifting into anything, extracting DNA from the shiftee and cloning it won't net you the thing that was shifted into . .
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