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> Common mistakes that less-skilled GMs make, We`re not perfect either
Shadow
post Dec 10 2008, 02:15 AM
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It can totally be abused, no one is disagreeing with that. And in yes you can burn edge to survive, in that case I would let the player burn edge. But as a GM the dice fall bad for the player's a lot more than they do for the NPC's. So being flexible and not killing your PC's just to show them you will, is a good thing.

BTW Pg 266 BBB: "Sometimes the GM has to cheat to keep characters alive."

Look to what I said, keep it consistent and use it sparingly, but arbitrarily letting the dice decide how your story is going to end, is no better then the people who show up to the game without dice.
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ahammer
post Dec 10 2008, 02:21 AM
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QUOTE (Shadow @ Dec 9 2008, 07:15 PM) *
It can totally be abused, no one is disagreeing with that. And in yes you can burn edge to survive, in that case I would let the player burn edge. But as a GM the dice fall bad for the player's a lot more than they do for the NPC's. So being flexible and not killing your PC's just to show them you will, is a good thing.

BTW Pg 266 BBB: "Sometimes the GM has to cheat to keep characters alive."

Look to what I said, keep it consistent and use it sparingly, but arbitrarily letting the dice decide how your story is going to end, is no better then the people who show up to the game without dice.


I can see that I have seen a lot of gm that use it to much.

i did not see the part of the book that has that then agin I tend to skip non background/rule part of rpg books. ie how to roleplay/gm
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the_dunner
post Dec 10 2008, 02:50 AM
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QUOTE (Shadow @ Dec 9 2008, 04:58 PM) *
3. Rules Discussion during the game.
Your the GM, your in charge, don't get bogged down in an argument with a rules lawyer in the game. It kills the mood and possibly ends the session. Instead make a decision right then and there, but caveat that you are willing to discuss it after the game and reach a better long term solution.


QFT. IMO, if you can, it's best to never open up a book during a game session. (Players or GMs.) Have your necessary charts handy, but if something comes into question, make a ruling, and discuss it after the session is over. (Or by e-mail before the next session.)
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Sir_Psycho
post Dec 10 2008, 02:51 AM
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As a GM, you have to remember that you are expected to role-play just as well as the players. An example of this is not using GM knowledge for your NPCs. I did this recently, while one of my runners was at a bar, and an NPC approached him, knowing he was a shadowrunner, and asked for his protection, it's no biggie, as it's progressed the story in an interesting way, but I realize maybe I should have rolled a perception test for her, especially because she used his name, but I didn't roll perception so there's no real reason she should have overheard him saying it.
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TheGothfather
post Dec 10 2008, 03:07 AM
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QUOTE (deek)
I don't know what its called, but in my mind, its the opposite of railroading. I think I did this my last adventure in our last campaign and it really opened my eyes. Basically, I outlined a job and left it completely open to the players to plan out the way they would succeed. At every step of the way, I simply gave them more options, any of which would work. All I really wanted them to do was pick a way to do it, as a team, and execute it together...

Well, it turned out that no one liked anyone else's idea, even though each player came up with one that would work. I completely let the players drive their success and it ended up ending the campaign because everyone got burnt out with, for what I could determine, complete lack of guidance by me.

So, while extreme railroading is a pretty common mistake (especially for those of us not having run games for a long time), giving the players total freedom and not attempting to guide them to a common goal generates it fair share of problems, especially if the GM is prepared to bring them all back into the game.
This is a mechanical issue. This style of play works fine if you allow the use of social conflict mechanics. If you leave it to fiat, this doesn't work unless you have a really bought-in group.


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Cain
post Dec 10 2008, 04:58 AM
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QUOTE
I await the coming of the "collaborative GM style" crowd...

We're already here. But since someone else called it "The worst advice ever", I didn't feel there was anything to add.

Re: fudging. Sure, GM's fudge dice, but seldom to favor the PC's. If someone goes down in a hail of gunfire, there's no need to fudge dice for them, that's what burning Edge is for. You only need to fudge dice for survival when then player has burnt all his Edge; and if that's happened, it's probably more than a string of bad luck.
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Jhaiisiin
post Dec 10 2008, 05:32 AM
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Not always. The guy who typically runs our SR games is a notoriously bad roller. I mean, max 1-2 successes as a general rule kind of bad, and usually complete failures or glitches.. It doesn't matter the dice, or the game system. That's just how it is. Another guy in our group (typically our oWoD GM) rolls exceedingly above average number of successes as a rule (in the open, so he's not fudging his rolls). He has had to fudge his rolls to save PC's in our WoD games more often than he can count because of his rolls (Hooray, 15 successes on damage, 2 on soak... uh, you only had 2 boxes left? Err... you're unconscious!).

Sometimes it's just a person's luck with dice. Granted, my situation is likely fairly unique, but it doesn't make it impossible. It's not always player tactics that get them killed.
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Cain
post Dec 10 2008, 05:40 AM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Dec 9 2008, 09:32 PM) *
Sometimes it's just a person's luck with dice. Granted, my situation is likely fairly unique, but it doesn't make it impossible. It's not always player tactics that get them killed.

I have an unbroken string of critical botches, every time I GM Shadowrun, going back to the late 90's. At least once a session, I will roll a critical botch, and this includes the SR3 days. You know, back when you needed to roll all 1's?

Even so, I've had a few big rolls, too. I've never come close to running a character out of Edge due to a lucky streak, nor do I think I will. If the average character has an Edge of 4, I need to utterly destroy him on a roll five time before I need to fudge. If someone's getting ganked five time a game, something is seriously wrong.
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Warlordtheft
post Dec 10 2008, 05:55 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 10 2008, 12:40 AM) *
If someone's getting ganked five time a game, something is seriously wrong.


Isn't that why every good shadowrunner has a Platinum Doc Wagon contract? Oh wait a minute, that is 5 resucitations in a year...yeah I'd say the player or PC has issues. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
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Jhaiisiin
post Dec 10 2008, 07:05 AM
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Meh. Edge refreshes at GM discretion. If that discretion is "at the end of the 'story'", which spans several gaming sessions, then the PC could very easily be out of edge by the end. (Discounting a Mr. Lucky PC here)

Edge is a buffer, that's all. In some people's games, it's a bigger buffer than others. *shrug*

EDIT: Regarding DocWagon, I remember taking a Platinum contract on every single character back in my SR2 days, and even on into SR3. But towards the end of SR3 and all of my time in SR4, not a single character of mine has had even a basic contract...

Odd. I'm gonna have to figure out what prompted my change.
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kzt
post Dec 10 2008, 07:37 AM
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QUOTE (deek @ Dec 9 2008, 08:13 AM) *
1) Thinking the players see the "easy solution" the the obstacle you put in front of them.

I've fallen into this trap a ton of times and the game usually comes to a halt because I feel like "my" solution is the only solution, whereas the group has actually come up with other solutions and sometimes better. In my years of experience, I have learned to check my ego at the door and let them be successful, even if it wasn't the way I had envisioned it.

One of the most fun games (not SR, but it doesn't matter) I ever played in had, as the concluding event, a series of lethal challenges that the GM didn't have a solution to. Once we won a rather expensive victory through some unorthodox tactics he admitted that there was no magic solution, the idea was that they were smart people trying to kill us. It was fun, even though about half the group died.
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TheOOB
post Dec 10 2008, 08:09 AM
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-Never plan to far ahead. Having a general idea what is going to happen in the next few runs is a good idea, but planning them out is a bad idea, players will always through a wrench in your plans.

-If an idea is cool and imaginative, at least give it a fair chance to work(and give them a rough estimate of their success rate, a character would know if they can make that jump or not, or at least have an idea).

-Despite it's intended purpose, stick-n-shock kills, using it on PCs when you don't expect them to get captured is ill-advised.

-Look over your players character sheets before play and let them know of any glaring flaws, like a character with four cyber-limbs, a commlink with a DNI, and a firewall rating of 1.

-If possible(it's difficult I know), try to have the johnson meet sometime before your gaming session, nothing is worse then a group refusing a run you have all planned out.
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deek
post Dec 10 2008, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (TheGothfather @ Dec 9 2008, 10:07 PM) *
This is a mechanical issue. This style of play works fine if you allow the use of social conflict mechanics. If you leave it to fiat, this doesn't work unless you have a really bought-in group.

I'm unfamiliar with that term: social conflict mechanics. Could you elaborate?
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Chrysalis
post Dec 10 2008, 02:15 PM
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here are some errors that I have noticed GMs doing:

Running their campaign or adventure in such a way as to win points on a forum

Running a campaign in such a way that if you go outside of the scripted events the GM punishes you.

The entire game time consists of character sheet development and talking system mechanics.

The GM throws you in romantic situations because "that is what you must be looking for" and then insists you have to fall in love with his proxy NPC.

The GM berrating players for playing their characters wrong.

The GM going on sidetracks about his favourite all teen girl group of players and implying they are better because they make him dinner.

The GM talks goes on a tangent about his large teen related pornographic collection (and I was the teen in the group too), political views, and his military history fetish.

I think some of the above are simply indicators of a GM who uses the GM screen as a pulpit and suffers from a serious sort of narcissistic tendencies.

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Wesley Street
post Dec 10 2008, 02:29 PM
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Bad rolls are bad rolls but I'm not going to let all of my players' PCs get gunned down in the very first encounter after I spent THREE WEEKS prepping an adventure. Screw that, I'm fudging the dice in their favor.
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TheGothfather
post Dec 10 2008, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Dec 10 2008, 05:57 AM) *
I'm unfamiliar with that term: social conflict mechanics. Could you elaborate?
Basically, using the game rules to resolve social conflicts just like you would any kind of physical challenge. For example, you could have one PC make an opposed Intimidation or Con test against another PC to settle the argument, rather than letting one player rely on his own personal social abilities to argue until the other player(s) gives up.

The problem is that SR (any edition) doesn't take this into account. You could try and hack it in, as I did in this old thread, but it's not a perfect solution, since the game wasn't designed to handle PC/PC interactions beyond a fiat approach.

I find it a little amusing that you're asking me to elaborate, though, when yours is the second post on that thread.
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Jay
post Dec 10 2008, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Dec 9 2008, 08:57 PM) *
Well, it turned out that no one liked anyone else's idea, even though each player came up with one that would work. I completely let the players drive their success and it ended up ending the campaign because everyone got burnt out with, for what I could determine, complete lack of guidance by me.



I am not so sure this would be a flaw in the GM/Ref style as perhaps an issue with teamwork within the group?

Or, I am not sure I understand the situation. If they generated a number of possible plans, what was reason for not going with plan A, B or C? Did the players find actual flaws in each other's plans? Did they figure each plan would work, but want the credit for coming up with the plan that was used?
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deek
post Dec 10 2008, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (TheGothfather @ Dec 10 2008, 10:23 AM) *
Basically, using the game rules to resolve social conflicts just like you would any kind of physical challenge. For example, you could have one PC make an opposed Intimidation or Con test against another PC to settle the argument, rather than letting one player rely on his own personal social abilities to argue until the other player(s) gives up.

The problem is that SR (any edition) doesn't take this into account. You could try and hack it in, as I did in this old thread, but it's not a perfect solution, since the game wasn't designed to handle PC/PC interactions beyond a fiat approach.

I find it a little amusing that you're asking me to elaborate, though, when yours is the second post on that thread.

That is amusing...now it was over a year ago, so I will take a little slack:) How quickly a memory fades...

This certainly would have kept my previous game alive when I let my players have at it...granted, they wouldn't have agreed to dice dictating their characters social tendencies mid-game, but I will take this as a way for future games to be run, especially if I go down the path of leaving direction and guidance up to a group.
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TheGothfather
post Dec 10 2008, 04:15 PM
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Sorry, deek, I didn't mean to come off as snarky there. Consider the slack cut, man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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BookWyrm
post Dec 10 2008, 04:30 PM
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I don't expect GM's to be perfect, just as I don't expect my players (when I'm running a game) to be perfect.
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Warlordtheft
post Dec 10 2008, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Dec 10 2008, 02:05 AM) *
Odd. I'm gonna have to figure out what prompted my change.


I'd guess cost and the fact that you'd need a good SIN.They did not change the price of the platimum ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 50K).
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Shadow
post Dec 10 2008, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 9 2008, 10:58 PM) *
We're already here. But since someone else called it "The worst advice ever", I didn't feel there was anything to add.


You've made your "no gm" style quite clear Cain, I am glad it works for you. Now work on realising there are other styles of GM'ing, specifically mentioned in the BBB, that work for people too. BTW I think the guy who called it "worst advice ever" thought I meant fudging the dice to allow PC's to succeed. I don't advocate that any more than I advocate uber powerful NPC's showing up the players. It shoudl be used sparringly, and to good effect, but you shouldn't be afraid to do it.

Your game style is not for me, mine's not for you, no need to go slinging mud.
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Malachi
post Dec 10 2008, 08:16 PM
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I also think collaborative GM'ing requires mature and skilled players, much the same way that homeschooling requires a dedicated parent with children willing to learn from their mom or dad. All the groups I've had were full of players that just wanted to show up, hang out, have fun, and play their guy. They didn't want any part in overall game narrative or campaign direction.
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deek
post Dec 10 2008, 08:19 PM
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Fudging dice is almost a necessity for GMs that don't spend inordinate amounts of time balancing each encounter. I would have to spend a whole lot more time preparing outside of the game to create encounters that have the feel that I want to present if I didn't fudge rolls from time to time. And in a game system that isn't exactly built to give a GM the tools to balance everything by RAW, you have to do something.

I suppose that is why burning edge is around, but I think that is a worse can of worms and usually don't allow that in my games. I'd rather just fudge one of my rolls here or there to get the "right feel" I'm looking for.

I was taken aback by an earlier comment that most GMs fudge dice in their favor, not the players. Is that really the common thought around here? If so, I run my games just the opposite, as over 90% of the time I fudge a roll is to save a player's ass.
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deek
post Dec 10 2008, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (Malachi @ Dec 10 2008, 03:16 PM) *
I also think collaborative GM'ing requires mature and skilled players, much the same way that homeschooling requires a dedicated parent with children willing to learn from their mom or dad. All the groups I've had were full of players that just wanted to show up, hang out, have fun, and play their guy. They didn't want any part in overall game narrative or campaign direction.

That's been my experience, too.

And even the few times a player did want some of that part in the game, their view was either outside the GMs comfort zone or was never able to be worked on in a timely manner.

Although, based on the example we've been given recently in other threads, the only examples of collaborative gaming have been that players make up their own backgrounds and they agree to discuss in-game ruling disputes outside of the session. To me, that is not as collaborative as most of us think "they" are talking about.
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