as, you know, death usually should be . .

Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

no, but rulebooks are.
and in one of them, average lifespan of orcs was about 40 years

Ah, in pre-SR4-time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

yes. SR3-Time.
Which is, in Game, barely 10 years in the past . . which is, more or less, the whole point of this thread i think.
also about dodger: i never wrote immortal, i wrote immoral, and that was intentional ^^
that's one of the nice things about shadowrun. it generally does not do this stupid thing where the evil bad villians and the good shining heros allways come back, no matter how dead the world thought them to be . .

I'm well aware of that. I never implied otherwise.

That's partly my point. Obviously Immortal Elves shouldn't count, but Dodger is not an Immortal Elf, so therefore should not be discounted out-of-hand when determining the oldest canon character.

I know that FASA's not around these days, but I always likened this topic to a similar phenomena in their other successful IP, BattleTech. Natasha Kerensky was kicking ass and taking names as a MechWarrior and Wolf Clan Khan into her 90's before she got roasted in her cockpit; Jaime Wolf was as old if not older when he kicked it during the Jihad. The difference between the two is that all BTech characters die (usually horribly bloody battlefield deaths, as befitting a wargame) eventually (except VSD, apparently) whereas Knight, FastJack, et al are still mostly hanging around. It's a case of the writers liking their characters too much to really axe them for good.

Hell, DC killed Superman. . . . . . for a few issues, anyway.

deaths in superhero comics are overrated.

and who cares about the big bads, i kinda liked the odd ones poping up in shadowtalks more.

these days its to sanitized, where is the big ol' tir tarngire talks with dragon-loads of veiled statements being made, followed by threads after threads of forum-goers trying to guess who the hell was hiding behind some handle or other...

You know their lifespans are also in the rulebooks, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

- J.

Emphasis mine. I agree 100% and this is my concern and what prompted me to write this.

I've just killed off my original 1st edition character from Shadowrun I had played on-off for over 10 years - all as part of a major plot hook to introduce my players to the new SR4 game.

- J.

And that's the kind of self-sacrifice I like to see in my playerbase!

I think the whole problem is that the life expectancies published in SR3 were just down right silly. Even today you'd have have to go to places like Botswana and Sudan to find the average life expectancy for Humans listed in SR3 (50). And orks are considerably below that!! (35-40). I understand there is supposed to be a lot more violence and disease in the SR universe and whatnot, but right now, today, Somalia is sitting at about 49.25 and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the world in 2070 is not as bad as Somalia. Its a simple matter of the authors not doing their research, throwing out arbitrary numbers and ending up with a (now defunct) SR factoid that is not congruent with the rest of the game world.

Here's are some actual data if anyone is interested.

i suspect that sr3 just echoed earlier versions...

If the writers kill of all the cool characters, then whom are the PCs and GMs to kill?

Yup - but you talked about novels. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Yes I cited official "canon" sources.

I'm not sure what your point is? Novels are canon, same as sourcebooks.

- J.

Mmmmmmm... not really.

Not at all.

About the orc lifespans: There's a genetic desease that is very common among orcs that causes premature aging: if I remember correctly the orc in charge of yamatetsu had it. The reason for the initially low figures in earlier editions is partly because of bad conditions and partly because the scientists studying orc lifespans had a large number of these premautely aging orcs in their sample set.

An Orc who has the desease has the shorter natural lifespan. Those who don't have it have a natural human lifespan. Orcs still mature physically faster than other metahumans: this is partly responsible for their reputations as many physically adult orcs are still pre-teens and as mentally capable and emotionally mature as their counterparts among other races. Remember, though, that normal humans are biologically "adult" around 14 themselves. The "18 is adult" thing is a specific social construct.

This is assuming, of course, that you consider the "product" that is the result of the cyberzombie process as "alive." I imagine Hatchetman's friends probably wouldn't agree. The process of creating cyberzombies as taught by the Ordo Maximus actually called for the subject to be ritually killed during the process and then "brought back" somehow, but they were.... different.

The last statement about novels and canon that I recall was back in the FanPro days. It was said that all but one of the (English) novels are considered to be canon.

Now you're splitting hairs.

No matter which way you cut it, he's still around - so long as he wants to be (or more specifically remembers to be 'alive').



Correct. There's been too much water under the bridge and too many novels referred to in sourcebooks for novels NOT to be considered canon.

Which novel wasn't considered canon? I'm sure I know it but I cannot recall. Any idea?

- J.

You know, I've had this conversation many times, and I can never remember exactly which novel is the exception. I really want to say Terminus Experiment, but I know that isn't it. I think that last time I single out Dead Air, but I'm not sure that was correct.

Terminus Experiment is an over the top, but very good novel . .
and Dead Air is simply GOOD . . and the best rigger novel of all . . if there are any others anyway . .
who does not want a winger special for his/her bike-rigger? ^^

Night's Pawn had some good rigging moments.