I think it's balanced just fine. Unless you use the custom armor(able to wear body x 3 before penalty) rule, someone would still need a body of 5 to wear an Armor Jacket and FFBA Level 2(total 12/7 armor, the high one counted as 10 for encumbrance purposes) with no penalty. To wear an armor jacket and FFBA 3(14/9, counted as 11 for encumbrance), you'd need a 6 Body to take no penalty. Easy enough for orks or trolls to hit, but not so much for anyone else(even Dwarves need to have a fair Body investment, since they only get +1.)

I don't see the problem with it. A heavy pistol loaded with Ex-Ex rounds has an AP of -2. I too can vouch that stacking an armor jacket and FFBA does not make you invincible, and most characters I find still end up hurting a bit by the end, if things go sour.

Again, if they're not wearing ALL the full body condom FFBA. I would only treat it as level 2 (w/ level 3 encumbrance penalties). And what are you going to do when a fight breaks out... first 2 IP's... run for cover and put on my gloves and hoody?

But overall, the biggest reason I don't have much of a problem w/ the FFBA is that it tends to benefit low body chars a lot more than high body chars. High body chars will be a pile of armor already... low body chars are a lot more limited. 6 points of armor isn't really a lot for even stopping a light pistol, and that's body 3 right there. 8 points is barely enough to reduce an AR to stun if you're lucky (and no fancy bang bang ammo is in play).

I'm not so much for stacking rules is that they'd benefit high body chars a lot more IMO, compared to the limited benefit of FFBA.

SR4 errata, page 3. EX ammo is +1 DV, -0 AP and EX-EX is +1 DV, -1 AP as of version 1.5 of the errata.

Um, yeah...? And heavy pistols are -1 AP, so combined are -2.

*facepalm*

Now attempting extraction of foot from mouth.

*laughs* Being able to admit when your wrong is a good trait.

Thank you. I'm nothing if not honest.

I can certainly see the point that anyone with the resources would be foolish not to invest in some form of FFBA, since it gives good armour for less encumberance, and without armour you're going to be hurting if anyone shoots at you. This does mean players who've not spotted them, or don't own Arsenal, are at a disadvantage, but being the nice GM I am, I'm happy to point out the rules to people. That doesn't mean I don't impose armour degradation rules!

PPP can be slightly more of a problem, but I simply don't allow them to stack with armour that conceivably already has those areas covered.

I can see some wisdom in allowing the more concealable armours to stack in the manner of FFBA, but then it comes down to a GM call as to whether a given armour is sufficiently light, flexible and thin enough to be worn under a larger coat.

My biggest gripe is with the urban explorer jumpsuit, which offers markedly better armour for less cost than many of the other armours - and combined with the Ruthernium Polymer coating is pretty much the same as the chameleon suit, for IIRC, less nuyen. The RP doesn't even need to arouse suspicion, since you can use it to display scrolling adverts, as described in the fluff. If it only provided impact armour, I'd be happier, since it says it's designed for free-running, and while some free-runners might get shot at by gangers - especially if they're dressed in neon spandex - the principal danger of urban exploring is probably banging into things. Personally I'm inclined to make the chameleon suit a little better, seeing as it is apparently designed for stealth, by allowing certain military armour grade accessories - although that will affect it's legality. I also consider that the description of the jumpsuit suggests the use of gel packs in it's functioning, so apply the same penalties suggested for those to wearers of the jumpsuit.

Thanks, 5/2 for nor wearing the hood does just fine, too. In fact, usually not wearing the hood allows it to be a full mask to be pulled over when the need arises - much more useful to runners.

And any runner (without genetic masking and dynamic fingerprints, at least) not wearing gloves is doing something very wrong, anyway. And wearing jika-tabi in addition to regular boots never hurts, either.

I just think soaking is a bad idea in general. Not to say that you shouldn't pile on as much armor as you can, but if your idea is to survive by eating bullets, you'll be in for a world of hurt. Each DV in SR4 requires 3 soak dice to be negated, statistically. And basic weapons in chargen can pump up to 16P on full auto narrow bursts before net successes. A person with the oh-so-mighty 18 soak dice we've been talking about would get sliced open by that attack. Maybe not killed, but are we going to say that it's broken for heavily armored people not to go splat instantly if they get shot? Armor is very useful for absorbing low DV attacks like pistols, but once things escalate, dodge is your only friend. To be sure, there's nothing preventing you from going with both dodge and high armor, but if anything can be considered broken, it's gymnastics twinkery. If nothing in the game has enough dice to hit you on full defense, then you truly are invincible. By comparison, it's not possible to get so much armor that nothing in the game can hurt you, at least not through mundane means. Since it's not even on the same scale as gymnastics twinking, I don't think we can truly call it broken.

another thing is that when you cant go above the armor, the damage do not simply go away (unless your wearing miilitary gear), it gets coverted to stun. and in SR4, its very likely that the stun track is shorter then the physical track.

and a knocked out runner is just as useless as a killed runner...

as for gymnastics, wide bursts and cover fire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If I have 25 full defense dice, and you wide-burst me, that leaves me with 16, which is still likely to be more dice than you're attacking me with. I'm probably overstating my case to say that gymnastics can make you invincible. But it's so much more powerful than mere soak dice that I always roll my eyes when people complain about how easy it is to add on armor. The heyday of the tank is over, welcome to the era of the dodge ninja (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

hmm, where did i put those explosives...

The trouble with gymnastics dodge is that it's purely defensive. Sure, the odds aren't good that they'll hit you, but in the meantime, the odds are zero that you'll be hitting them. Combat Sense is probably the best overall defense, since it is also "on" when you are using passive dodging (i.e. not full defense).

in other words, just keep firing while the backup cuts of the escape route...

or maybe blanket the area with freeze foam (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Problem with Wide Burst (or even Narrow Burst) for the Security boys is just that, their Security. They are not some criminal that doesn't care about causing random damage. They are ether payed to protect the site or the people in an area. Shooting it up with crazy full auto fire is a good way to cause random damage to valuable property (or paying customers). Freeze Foam, Flash Bangs, Flash Pacs, Tear Gas, etc are far more in keeping with their role.

Now for some random gangers down in the sprawl, heh, spray the bouncy bouncy dodge ninja with so many different guns that by the laws of averages something will have to get through.

I think that depends on what type of security they are. Run of the mill security guard? They're probably using tasers, tear gas, flash bangs, and freeze foam. Corporate military security? They're probably using APDS, EX-Ex, white phos, doberman drones, etc.

I should also note that a wide burst with gel rounds is also feasible for regular security.

or a nearby runner? right now the only thing that have multiple target rules are explosives and shotguns firing shot rounds...

and unless one is caught inside a lab or other special room, or in the middle of the work day, the chance of hitting something that cant be replaced is rather small...

supposedly life is cheap in SR, and that will include guards going "spray and pray" rather then worrying about the peons in the line of fire. if they dont stop the runners, they loose the job, simple as that.

but yes, the doorman with his badge, uniform and basic training will probably just hit the alarm and head for cover (maybe try to slow the runners down if he is a ex-cop or something), metting the HTR/SWAT team(s) take the assault.

and those will probably have some kind of force escalation system, starting with stun weapons or similar unless the opponent is in some black lab or is waving guns around for all to see.

It also depends on whether the runners are hitting the corporation where there are pedestrians milling around. If they're hitting a downtown office, that's one thing, but if they're inside the outer wall of a corporate complex, there won't be anyone else in the line of fire except the runners.

True, but I have been in games were the Security forces just sprayed at the Runners when there were by-standers about.

and that can be done as there are no direct rules for hitting bystanders or similar, and never has...

And as we all know, that causes missing projectiles to harmlessly drop to the ground.

yep, didnt you know? all bullets in sr has built in hit-or-miss sensor that will harmlessly remove said bullet from existence if it do not hit its intended target (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

anyways, ones one open the door to bystander risks, this is things like "overpenetration". sucks standing behind someone and get shot because the round didnt bother to stop...

Most likely the PCs won't care about bystanders, and if the guards do, they'll be using non-lethal gel rounds. Regardless, if collateral damage is an issue, it's easiest handled by GM fiat. If the PCs have any morals the description of innocent bystanders being turned into so much mush as a consequence of the runners actions might encourage them to play things more low key. If they are the type to revel in that kind of thing, it would hardly be fair for the gm to deny them.