OK everyone, I've used the search feature and could not find what I was looking for. What I want to know if I wanted to play a Chaos Mage, but rather than the normal spirits I would want to use different ones. I was wanting to use Guardian Spirits instead of Fire Spirits for my Combat Spirit type. Would there be a problem with this

Also I want my Chaos Mage to see spirits as true sentient beings rather than some mindless automatons. Is there a real difference or just a fluff explanation?

This is between you and your GM. What you're doing is effectively creating a new tradition, which is very similar in many ways to Chaos Magic, but isn't quite the same.

Is this power gaming? If so then I'll drop the spirit type change. Now about viewing Spirits as sentient rather than mindless... Is that really that big of a change?

The change in how you view spirits is entirely up to you. Again, if your GM's OK with it then it's fine. It certainly won't unbalance the game in any way!

Swapping in Guardian instead of Fire spirits might or might not be powergaming; it rather depends on why you want to do it in the first place!

I wanted to swap because I always liked the image of an angel* swooping down with a sword and delivering a smack down on the bad guys.


* = I am a Roman Catholic afterall

And why aren't you playing Theurge?

The imagery of the spirit has nothing to do with the type and everything to do with the tradition. A fire spirit can materialize as an angel of wrath just as well as a guardian spirit.
The sword may easily be part of the spirit, it doesn't need to be able to wield an actual one.

Because I played one too many Virtual Adepts when I was playing WoD... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Now to the second part of my OP, do all Hermetic Mages have to view spirits as mindless automatons, or can a Hermetic understand that there are Spirits with freewill?

There aren't spirits with free will, unless either a) they go free, or b) their summoner thinks they have free will...

So if a Hermetic mage thinks that spirits have free will then they will have free will. Can the converse be true, a shaman who thinks that spirits are slaves and have no free will?

It could, although neither would be remotely typical and frankly it just raises the question of why they're a shaman or hermetic anyhow. Your tradition comes from your worldview, and if your worldview is radically different to the norm for your tradition, it might just be that your character would make more sense in a different tradition.

I think mixing it up with the traditions is both fun and welcome, and I see no reason why people couldn't play with the spirits they find most fun.
Powergaming is an issue, but I like to handle it separately.

Hermetics that think spirits have free will... I think this changes the feel of the tradition very much, as you're no longer only 'molding the energies of the world'. Though reading the BBB, it even says that some hermetics consider spirits of man ghosts or ancestor spirits. If you can make it consistent, I don't see why not.

Really it's all between you, your GM and the enjoyment of the people you play with.

Something to consider, a fire spirit is rather appropriate to model an angel with a flaming sword and an aura a righteous purity than burns the wicked.

Also Guardian spirits are way more power than fire spirits. Magical guard and machine guns are much better than engery aura.

Another random consideration is a retcon for minor tradition. If you feel like chaos magicians view spirits differently than the RAW right up, re-write it! It won't change cannon that much. You'll be happier and more invest.

I allow for sub-traditions that still use formulas and such from another tradition, for example I once played a fae druid who used charisma(along with spirit changes), but could use druid formulas because a)there where few few druids, and b)they arn't know to spend time with arcana and enchanting.

I play a shapeshifter character whose Tradition is Hermetic. He learned it after a fashion but he isn't a really good magician in any way. He's more interested in fiddling around... anyway after he made contact with a free Spirit he took a twist since he couldn't really grasp some fundamentals of magic. The Spirit teaches him magic "so he can understand it" which changed some of the spirits and his drain attribute.
Remember: The Hermetic Order is a kind of teaching and stuff like the Unified Magical Theory did crop up from it.

Do what you will.
An exemple of strange stuff that happen is that a magitian of mine, an elf with exceptional talent but no magical education at all, she developed hers talent on hers own around some simple concept:

• magic is life and life is magic;
• magic is born from the heart (intended as coscence, spirit or mere aura) of the living and growes on emmotion (hermetism is quite alien to her);
• magic has three domains and three spheres appartence;
• working life require to commune with life around you;
• spirits are living being, with their own emmotions and feeling;
• summoning is asking for assistance, the summoned spirit is doing you a favor by responding to your plea;
• magic is neutral, its user is responsible of the way it's used and what it's used for.

The paradigma is centered around the concept of the "Whole", also known as "Gaea" or "Gaia", which rapresentes the interactions betwen living beings, the magician drawes mana from the whole shaping it into spells as an artistical expression of self; the whole is divided in the three domains in which life takes place (earth, air and water) and in the three spheres in which life is divided (plant, beast and man for setience), this domains and spheres aren't mutualy exclusive (for exampledragons belong to both beast and man spheres, swamp to both earth and water domains) and their overlapping defines the various form of life.
Obiously six spirit types are difficult to squize in five summonable types, however when magic is used it is used with a porpouse (very important, acting without knowing what you want leades to disappointment, failuer or even troumble) and is this porpouse that determines the type of spirit summoned, the Spheres and Domains determine the look (a guardian spirit of water domain and beast sphere could look as an acquatic animal, a guidance spirit of the air and beast could look like a bird); the magician him/her-self is a spirit (just like any living being) and when summonig is involved it's always a deal betwen equals, binding is akin to slavery because it imposes unatural limitation to the spirit, it must be performed only due dire circustances or special porpouses that need prolonged services and compensation for the deprivation of freedom should be given to the spirit if possible (exception is the binding ritual required to summon an ally spirit, as the whole process is seen as giving birth to the spirit).

So:

Combat: Guardian
Detection: Guidance
Health: Man
Illusion: Air
Manipulation: Task

Drain: Charisma for Conjuration, Intuition for everything else

Following hers own "tradition" she must either research a formula by herself or learn from a formula of another tradition (hermetic mind asset is alien to her but she can their formulas as instruction sets and rappresentation of the mana flux of the spell) by making the usual learning test but capping the hits of a single roll with the relevant Magical Background knowledge skill (she must also be able to read the formula, things written in japanese will be just line on paper to her); she herself doesn't produce any formula researching the spell formula rapresentes just the study required to learn the spell.
Hers lodge is actualy a large garden/small park in which she growes various plants (doubles as food source), it's inhabited by a small group of free spirit which chase away unwanted guests (hers lifestyle expenses are actualy the budget for mantainance plus various things to keep the spirits happy).

As final note hers "tradition" stresses harmony and respect of life, but this doesn't mean she's not able to use combat spells, wanton violence and uneeded bloodshed are to be avoided but life is also made of predators and preys, it's just natural to fight for survival.