IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
WeaverMount
post Jan 7 2009, 08:35 AM
Post #26


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,069
Joined: 19-July 07
From: Oakland CA
Member No.: 12,309



QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 7 2009, 04:32 AM) *
There's Background Count, so unless overcasting, it is pea shooters versus mil-spec. Without overcasting, any spell the F4 spirit casts will be reduced to Force 0.


I stand corrected. Pretend i said F5. Magic 5 mages and spirits don't exactly grow on trees, but compared to CZ they might as well.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Jan 7 2009, 09:13 AM
Post #27


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Jan 7 2009, 04:35 PM) *
I stand corrected. Pretend i said F5. Magic 5 mages and spirits don't exactly grow on trees, but compared to CZ they might as well.

Eh, ok... so without overcast, the spell is Force 1. I think if you want to even seriously think to challenge a CZ, you'd need Force 7 or 8.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dr Funfrock
post Jan 7 2009, 05:24 PM
Post #28


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 353
Joined: 2-February 08
Member No.: 15,618



Especially since this hypothetical Essence -4 CZ we're discussing has a natural Willpower max of 10. Even with just a Willpower of 8 or so, you're only needing 1 hit against Force 1.

And of course, unlike Astral Hazing, CZ's can go past a Background Count of 4. How's 6 for ya? Maximum Willpower of 12 (before augmentation), and needing Force 7 before the CZ is even rolling. To actually do anything to a Willpower 12 CZ at Essence -6? We're talking Force 10 just to get even odds. That's what you might call an unhealthy quantity of Drain.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mäx
post Jan 7 2009, 08:59 PM
Post #29


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,803
Joined: 3-February 08
From: Finland
Member No.: 15,628



QUOTE (Dr Funfrock @ Jan 7 2009, 07:24 PM) *
And of course, unlike Astral Hazing, CZ's can go past a Background Count of 4. How's 6 for ya?

Actually they can't it's always 4 just like Astral Hazing, unless there's an errata for Aug that i have missed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
InfinityzeN
post Jan 7 2009, 09:00 PM
Post #30


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 992
Joined: 23-December 08
From: the Tampa Sprawl
Member No.: 16,707



I've actually build quiet a few CZ (though never actually used them in game against my players) and once you start getting pretty deep into the - Essence, they become a walking magic destroyer.

Any magic using PC who runes into a CZ in game, their first reaction should be total and complete horror. Their second reaction should be to freaking run the freaking hell a freaking way as freaking fast as they freaking can. Change all those to proper four letter words.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jan 7 2009, 09:13 PM
Post #31


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,538
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



only the biggest of guns, either magical OR mundane can do more than scratch and annoy a "good" CZ.
one question though: how does counter-spelling factor into this?
can one dis/counter-spell a cyber-zombie?
because technically, they would have to be a quickened or focus bound enchantment . .
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Larme
post Jan 7 2009, 09:29 PM
Post #32


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,653
Joined: 22-January 08
Member No.: 15,430



I'm pretty sure that, if you know the ritual to create a cyberzombie, you also know how to reverse that ritual. But you'd probably need to keep him still while you did it, as an ultra-super-secret dark ritual isn't going to be undone with one dice roll. It's a lot easier just to drop a bomb on a cyberzombie, that'll paint his wagon. Or just swap his meds for placebos, and watch him die on his own.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jan 7 2009, 09:44 PM
Post #33


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,538
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



*snippage*
Toxins/Drugs . . if you can get it into him, he's about as fucked as most people i guess . .
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
InfinityzeN
post Jan 7 2009, 10:09 PM
Post #34


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 992
Joined: 23-December 08
From: the Tampa Sprawl
Member No.: 16,707



A good CZ (read: very negative Essence) will have a monster high body, so most toxins will have little chance of effecting him. That is, if the they can even be effected by toxins anymore. Something I can't remember ATM.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jan 7 2009, 10:20 PM
Post #35


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,538
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



nice thing about toxins is, that no matter how high your armor is, you resist with only natural body . .
in sR3, the meanest thing to do was lace anything with GammaScopolamine. if you got any damage on the attack, the target got to Resist 10D Stun Damage with only natural body and if he had specializes cyber/bio stuff . . but still, even with a 20 in body, try and roll 8 times a 10 on D6 . .
and i guess there's some vile stuff in SR4 too right? O.o
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
InfinityzeN
post Jan 7 2009, 10:50 PM
Post #36


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 992
Joined: 23-December 08
From: the Tampa Sprawl
Member No.: 16,707



When I said a good CZ would have a monster high body, I was talking about his "Natural" (as much as you can use that term while talking about a CZ) body. If a human CZ has a -10 Essence, his natural body max is 16!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jan 7 2009, 10:54 PM
Post #37


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,538
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



still has to roll good for most toxins neh?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rasumichin
post Jan 7 2009, 11:08 PM
Post #38


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,300
Joined: 6-February 08
From: Cologne, Germany
Member No.: 15,648



QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 7 2009, 10:13 PM) *
only the biggest of guns, either magical OR mundane can do more than scratch and annoy a "good" CZ.
one question though: how does counter-spelling factor into this?
can one dis/counter-spell a cyber-zombie?
because technically, they would have to be a quickened or focus bound enchantment . .


Technically, they are more comparable to bound and invoked spirits.
Cybemancy is a metatechnique that involves knowledge of both Invoking and Corruption (yes, technically, cybermancers would have to be toxics), both of which are directed at spirits.
The end of the cybermantic ritual is a Binding test, not an enchantment.

The fluff in SR4 regarding them is similar.

So the question should be : can they be banished?
The rules don't say anything about it.

QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jan 7 2009, 11:50 PM) *
When I said a good CZ would have a monster high body, I was talking about his "Natural" (as much as you can use that term while talking about a CZ) body. If a human CZ has a -10 Essence, his natural body max is 16!


Until now, no one has officially managed to take a CZ below -6 Essence.
Of course, the corps are working on that.
I don't suspect the results to be very stable, but one has to keep in mind that cybermancy is becoming more and more reliable.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Larme
post Jan 8 2009, 04:43 AM
Post #39


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,653
Joined: 22-January 08
Member No.: 15,430



QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 7 2009, 04:44 PM) *
*snippage*
Toxins/Drugs . . if you can get it into him, he's about as fucked as most people i guess . .


I wouldn't think so. What's the point of being a cyberzombie if someone can take you out with toxins? I think a basic requirement for a CZ is toxin filtration ware, and probably an oxygen tank. I was referring to the fact that they need special immunosuppressants, requiring a facility to formulate, or they die. Now, if I was a CZ, I'd have chemical analyzer ware and I'd check my pills to make sure they were real. But lacking that, you could kill a CZ by replacing his regular drugs with harmless placebos.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Jan 8 2009, 05:05 AM
Post #40


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jan 8 2009, 05:00 AM) *
Any magic using PC who runes into a CZ in game, their first reaction should be total and complete horror. Their second reaction should be to freaking run the freaking hell a freaking way as freaking fast as they freaking can. Change all those to proper four letter words.

Not quite. I have a group of PCs that was built to take into account background counts and make use of them. One of them had Astral Hazing(hello Astral Hazing Fomori Technomancer!) and the rest of them used BC4 as a hard datum for their builds since that guy is always in the center of BC4, so no one could screw them over with Mana Static hijinks and they could operate just as well in space and other unstable and unfriendly mana environments.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jake
post Jan 8 2009, 10:16 AM
Post #41


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,849
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 872



QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Jan 7 2009, 11:08 PM) *
Technically, they are more comparable to bound and invoked spirits.
Cybemancy is a metatechnique that involves knowledge of both Invoking and Corruption (yes, technically, cybermancers would have to be toxics), both of which are directed at spirits.


They aren't toxic. Theyre corrupted.

Granted it is a subtle but its a very important distinction.

- J.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rasumichin
post Jan 8 2009, 07:08 PM
Post #42


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,300
Joined: 6-February 08
From: Cologne, Germany
Member No.: 15,648



QUOTE (The Jake @ Jan 8 2009, 11:16 AM) *
They aren't toxic. Theyre corrupted.

Granted it is a subtle but its a very important distinction.


I always perceived them as corrupted as well and am aware of the difference, but Corruption is listed under toxic metamagic.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jake
post Jan 8 2009, 10:02 PM
Post #43


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,849
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 872



QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Jan 8 2009, 07:08 PM) *
I always perceived them as corrupted as well and am aware of the difference, but Corruption is listed under toxic metamagic.


I retract that statement.

BTW all, background count on a CZ is ALWAYS a 4. It does not change irrespective of the essence of the zombie.

If you wanted to houserule it you could argue the BC is equal to the nearest whole number of said CZ's essence. This would allow for nightmarish BC of 6 for the most tricked out CZ.

Realistically though, if you're going to go the route of the CZ, I'd go all the way and push for a -6.

- J.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Jan 8 2009, 10:25 PM
Post #44


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,538
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



yeah, if you gotta do something, at least, do it thoroughly and in style . . -6 essence means all 12 max attributes for a human cyber-zombie.
and if you start with the human metatype with the more than 2 arms you can do some pretty ugly things ^^
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HentaiZonga
post Jan 9 2009, 12:10 AM
Post #45


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 14-April 08
From: Phoenix, AZ
Member No.: 15,884



Hrm. So basically, the Essence loss below 0 represents the effective "Force" of the Inhabiting Corrupted spirit that's controlling the body (which, presumably, happens to be the original body's spirit, just turned sideways, shined up real nice and shoved right up the CZ's candy-ass).

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jake
post Jan 9 2009, 01:55 AM
Post #46


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,849
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 872



QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Jan 9 2009, 01:10 AM) *
Hrm. So basically, the Essence loss below 0 represents the effective "Force" of the Inhabiting Corrupted spirit that's controlling the body (which, presumably, happens to be the original body's spirit, just turned sideways, shined up real nice and shoved right up the CZ's candy-ass).


It would seem a reasonable assumption.

If the negative essence is the number of points that enhances the natural attributes of the CZ, it would stand to reason that the background count should have some kind of portional level of taint.

Obviously that process of becoming a CZ is so corrupt and horrifying that it might be higher, perhaps warranting the four minimum rating?

Having said that the more I think about it, the more I think a BC of anything under 4 seems a tad low for what they've become....

- J.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
InfinityzeN
post Jan 9 2009, 02:41 AM
Post #47


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 992
Joined: 23-December 08
From: the Tampa Sprawl
Member No.: 16,707



QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Jan 8 2009, 07:10 PM) *
Hrm. So basically, the Essence loss below 0 represents the effective "Force" of the Inhabiting Corrupted spirit that's controlling the body (which, presumably, happens to be the original body's spirit, just turned sideways, shined up real nice and shoved right up the CZ's candy-ass).

I wouldn't have said it quite that way but yea, that is pretty much right on.

And since your shooting for -6, why not take some serious delta grade bio and cyber, get it in packages, and really load that ass up. You can manage something in the 40s of total essence of Cyberware and Bioware without any merits that reduce their essence cost.

When I just did the math on one I just built, I stuck 26 essence of cyber (Delta, Suite, Adapsin), 12.6 essence of bio (Delta), and 1.8 essence of genetics in em and ended up with a -6 essence. That gave me a total of 40.4 essence worth, which I could have cranked to 42 by dropping the Genetic Optimization in each stat. But hell, I wanted a max of 13 across the board.

Since he was SOTA, I stuck some Wild Card Nano Prototypes in him, but didn't give him any other qualities to reduce the cost.

QUOTE (The Jake @ Jan 8 2009, 08:55 PM) *
Having said that the more I think about it, the more I think a BC of anything under 4 seems a tad low for what they've become....


True, and the effect that their neg essence has is to increase the radius around them. But I feel sorry for the poor magic types who attack one in their home ground. That radius just keeps on growing if they stay in one place and can get pretty damn big in their "home".
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jake
post Jan 9 2009, 08:27 AM
Post #48


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,849
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 872



QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jan 9 2009, 02:41 AM) *
True, and the effect that their neg essence has is to increase the radius around them. But I feel sorry for the poor magic types who attack one in their home ground. That radius just keeps on growing if they stay in one place and can get pretty damn big in their "home".


I was thinking of CZ's from the other side of the same coin -

How would you use them as a PC if you had mages in the party?Where would said CZ live?

I was thinking - there's a quality for your lifestyle you can take which affects mage, Astral Repellent. Could you take Astral Repellent with a -4 background count and with the CZ's background count, would the two negate each other? Street Magic doesn't cover these sorts of bizarre situations well (overlapping background counts).

- J.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TheOOB
post Jan 9 2009, 09:03 AM
Post #49


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,290
Joined: 23-January 07
From: Seattle, USA
Member No.: 10,749



I'd assume more powerful count takes priority.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
InfinityzeN
post Jan 9 2009, 01:51 PM
Post #50


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 992
Joined: 23-December 08
From: the Tampa Sprawl
Member No.: 16,707



QUOTE (The Jake @ Jan 9 2009, 03:27 AM) *
How would you use them as a PC if you had mages in the party?Where would said CZ live?

The CZ would really need lots places to live. Since the radius increases by 1m for every ~3 hours (IIRC), it would be up to ~14m from the center of his house when he leaves it. It also shrinks fairly slowly.

Any place that a CZ has stayed for a length of time will show up fairly well to magic types and he has stayed there for days on end, it will be a big honking wasteland. Our -6 CZ would have a BGC 4 zone with a radius of 62m around a place he stayed for a week.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 8th July 2025 - 06:35 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.