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#26
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,069 Joined: 19-July 07 From: Oakland CA Member No.: 12,309 ![]() |
There's Background Count, so unless overcasting, it is pea shooters versus mil-spec. Without overcasting, any spell the F4 spirit casts will be reduced to Force 0. I stand corrected. Pretend i said F5. Magic 5 mages and spirits don't exactly grow on trees, but compared to CZ they might as well. |
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#27
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Canon Companion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 ![]() |
I stand corrected. Pretend i said F5. Magic 5 mages and spirits don't exactly grow on trees, but compared to CZ they might as well. Eh, ok... so without overcast, the spell is Force 1. I think if you want to even seriously think to challenge a CZ, you'd need Force 7 or 8. |
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#28
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 353 Joined: 2-February 08 Member No.: 15,618 ![]() |
Especially since this hypothetical Essence -4 CZ we're discussing has a natural Willpower max of 10. Even with just a Willpower of 8 or so, you're only needing 1 hit against Force 1.
And of course, unlike Astral Hazing, CZ's can go past a Background Count of 4. How's 6 for ya? Maximum Willpower of 12 (before augmentation), and needing Force 7 before the CZ is even rolling. To actually do anything to a Willpower 12 CZ at Essence -6? We're talking Force 10 just to get even odds. That's what you might call an unhealthy quantity of Drain. |
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#29
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Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 ![]() |
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#30
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 23-December 08 From: the Tampa Sprawl Member No.: 16,707 ![]() |
I've actually build quiet a few CZ (though never actually used them in game against my players) and once you start getting pretty deep into the - Essence, they become a walking magic destroyer.
Any magic using PC who runes into a CZ in game, their first reaction should be total and complete horror. Their second reaction should be to freaking run the freaking hell a freaking way as freaking fast as they freaking can. Change all those to proper four letter words. |
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#31
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
only the biggest of guns, either magical OR mundane can do more than scratch and annoy a "good" CZ.
one question though: how does counter-spelling factor into this? can one dis/counter-spell a cyber-zombie? because technically, they would have to be a quickened or focus bound enchantment . . |
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#32
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 ![]() |
I'm pretty sure that, if you know the ritual to create a cyberzombie, you also know how to reverse that ritual. But you'd probably need to keep him still while you did it, as an ultra-super-secret dark ritual isn't going to be undone with one dice roll. It's a lot easier just to drop a bomb on a cyberzombie, that'll paint his wagon. Or just swap his meds for placebos, and watch him die on his own.
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#33
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
*snippage*
Toxins/Drugs . . if you can get it into him, he's about as fucked as most people i guess . . |
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#34
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 23-December 08 From: the Tampa Sprawl Member No.: 16,707 ![]() |
A good CZ (read: very negative Essence) will have a monster high body, so most toxins will have little chance of effecting him. That is, if the they can even be effected by toxins anymore. Something I can't remember ATM.
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#35
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
nice thing about toxins is, that no matter how high your armor is, you resist with only natural body . .
in sR3, the meanest thing to do was lace anything with GammaScopolamine. if you got any damage on the attack, the target got to Resist 10D Stun Damage with only natural body and if he had specializes cyber/bio stuff . . but still, even with a 20 in body, try and roll 8 times a 10 on D6 . . and i guess there's some vile stuff in SR4 too right? O.o |
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#36
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 23-December 08 From: the Tampa Sprawl Member No.: 16,707 ![]() |
When I said a good CZ would have a monster high body, I was talking about his "Natural" (as much as you can use that term while talking about a CZ) body. If a human CZ has a -10 Essence, his natural body max is 16!
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#37
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
still has to roll good for most toxins neh?
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#38
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,300 Joined: 6-February 08 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 15,648 ![]() |
only the biggest of guns, either magical OR mundane can do more than scratch and annoy a "good" CZ. one question though: how does counter-spelling factor into this? can one dis/counter-spell a cyber-zombie? because technically, they would have to be a quickened or focus bound enchantment . . Technically, they are more comparable to bound and invoked spirits. Cybemancy is a metatechnique that involves knowledge of both Invoking and Corruption (yes, technically, cybermancers would have to be toxics), both of which are directed at spirits. The end of the cybermantic ritual is a Binding test, not an enchantment. The fluff in SR4 regarding them is similar. So the question should be : can they be banished? The rules don't say anything about it. When I said a good CZ would have a monster high body, I was talking about his "Natural" (as much as you can use that term while talking about a CZ) body. If a human CZ has a -10 Essence, his natural body max is 16! Until now, no one has officially managed to take a CZ below -6 Essence. Of course, the corps are working on that. I don't suspect the results to be very stable, but one has to keep in mind that cybermancy is becoming more and more reliable. |
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#39
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 ![]() |
*snippage* Toxins/Drugs . . if you can get it into him, he's about as fucked as most people i guess . . I wouldn't think so. What's the point of being a cyberzombie if someone can take you out with toxins? I think a basic requirement for a CZ is toxin filtration ware, and probably an oxygen tank. I was referring to the fact that they need special immunosuppressants, requiring a facility to formulate, or they die. Now, if I was a CZ, I'd have chemical analyzer ware and I'd check my pills to make sure they were real. But lacking that, you could kill a CZ by replacing his regular drugs with harmless placebos. |
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#40
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Canon Companion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 ![]() |
Any magic using PC who runes into a CZ in game, their first reaction should be total and complete horror. Their second reaction should be to freaking run the freaking hell a freaking way as freaking fast as they freaking can. Change all those to proper four letter words. Not quite. I have a group of PCs that was built to take into account background counts and make use of them. One of them had Astral Hazing(hello Astral Hazing Fomori Technomancer!) and the rest of them used BC4 as a hard datum for their builds since that guy is always in the center of BC4, so no one could screw them over with Mana Static hijinks and they could operate just as well in space and other unstable and unfriendly mana environments. |
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#41
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,849 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 872 ![]() |
Technically, they are more comparable to bound and invoked spirits. Cybemancy is a metatechnique that involves knowledge of both Invoking and Corruption (yes, technically, cybermancers would have to be toxics), both of which are directed at spirits. They aren't toxic. Theyre corrupted. Granted it is a subtle but its a very important distinction. - J. |
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#42
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,300 Joined: 6-February 08 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 15,648 ![]() |
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#43
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,849 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 872 ![]() |
I always perceived them as corrupted as well and am aware of the difference, but Corruption is listed under toxic metamagic. I retract that statement. BTW all, background count on a CZ is ALWAYS a 4. It does not change irrespective of the essence of the zombie. If you wanted to houserule it you could argue the BC is equal to the nearest whole number of said CZ's essence. This would allow for nightmarish BC of 6 for the most tricked out CZ. Realistically though, if you're going to go the route of the CZ, I'd go all the way and push for a -6. - J. |
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#44
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
yeah, if you gotta do something, at least, do it thoroughly and in style . . -6 essence means all 12 max attributes for a human cyber-zombie.
and if you start with the human metatype with the more than 2 arms you can do some pretty ugly things ^^ |
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#45
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 14-April 08 From: Phoenix, AZ Member No.: 15,884 ![]() |
Hrm. So basically, the Essence loss below 0 represents the effective "Force" of the Inhabiting Corrupted spirit that's controlling the body (which, presumably, happens to be the original body's spirit, just turned sideways, shined up real nice and shoved right up the CZ's candy-ass).
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#46
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,849 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 872 ![]() |
Hrm. So basically, the Essence loss below 0 represents the effective "Force" of the Inhabiting Corrupted spirit that's controlling the body (which, presumably, happens to be the original body's spirit, just turned sideways, shined up real nice and shoved right up the CZ's candy-ass). It would seem a reasonable assumption. If the negative essence is the number of points that enhances the natural attributes of the CZ, it would stand to reason that the background count should have some kind of portional level of taint. Obviously that process of becoming a CZ is so corrupt and horrifying that it might be higher, perhaps warranting the four minimum rating? Having said that the more I think about it, the more I think a BC of anything under 4 seems a tad low for what they've become.... - J. |
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#47
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 23-December 08 From: the Tampa Sprawl Member No.: 16,707 ![]() |
Hrm. So basically, the Essence loss below 0 represents the effective "Force" of the Inhabiting Corrupted spirit that's controlling the body (which, presumably, happens to be the original body's spirit, just turned sideways, shined up real nice and shoved right up the CZ's candy-ass). I wouldn't have said it quite that way but yea, that is pretty much right on. And since your shooting for -6, why not take some serious delta grade bio and cyber, get it in packages, and really load that ass up. You can manage something in the 40s of total essence of Cyberware and Bioware without any merits that reduce their essence cost. When I just did the math on one I just built, I stuck 26 essence of cyber (Delta, Suite, Adapsin), 12.6 essence of bio (Delta), and 1.8 essence of genetics in em and ended up with a -6 essence. That gave me a total of 40.4 essence worth, which I could have cranked to 42 by dropping the Genetic Optimization in each stat. But hell, I wanted a max of 13 across the board. Since he was SOTA, I stuck some Wild Card Nano Prototypes in him, but didn't give him any other qualities to reduce the cost. Having said that the more I think about it, the more I think a BC of anything under 4 seems a tad low for what they've become.... True, and the effect that their neg essence has is to increase the radius around them. But I feel sorry for the poor magic types who attack one in their home ground. That radius just keeps on growing if they stay in one place and can get pretty damn big in their "home". |
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#48
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,849 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 872 ![]() |
True, and the effect that their neg essence has is to increase the radius around them. But I feel sorry for the poor magic types who attack one in their home ground. That radius just keeps on growing if they stay in one place and can get pretty damn big in their "home". I was thinking of CZ's from the other side of the same coin - How would you use them as a PC if you had mages in the party?Where would said CZ live? I was thinking - there's a quality for your lifestyle you can take which affects mage, Astral Repellent. Could you take Astral Repellent with a -4 background count and with the CZ's background count, would the two negate each other? Street Magic doesn't cover these sorts of bizarre situations well (overlapping background counts). - J. |
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#49
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,290 Joined: 23-January 07 From: Seattle, USA Member No.: 10,749 ![]() |
I'd assume more powerful count takes priority.
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#50
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 23-December 08 From: the Tampa Sprawl Member No.: 16,707 ![]() |
How would you use them as a PC if you had mages in the party?Where would said CZ live? The CZ would really need lots places to live. Since the radius increases by 1m for every ~3 hours (IIRC), it would be up to ~14m from the center of his house when he leaves it. It also shrinks fairly slowly. Any place that a CZ has stayed for a length of time will show up fairly well to magic types and he has stayed there for days on end, it will be a big honking wasteland. Our -6 CZ would have a BGC 4 zone with a radius of 62m around a place he stayed for a week. |
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