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> New Spell: Shapechange REWORKED, Reworked version that transforms clothing and equipment too
i101
post Jan 16 2009, 01:03 AM
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I am trying to rework the spell 'Shapechange' but with the possiblity to transform clothing and equipment, correct me if I forgot something.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Step1: Choose Category: Manipulation, Physical Manipulation (+0), Major Change (+2)
Step2: Choose Spell Type: Physical Spell (+1)
Step3: Choose Range: Touch (-2)
Step4: Choose Duration: Sustained (+0)
Step5: Determine Effect: Success Test Spells
Step6: Calculate Drain Value: F/2+1

Spell Description: See BBB page 204, Shapechange.


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Dragnar
post Jan 16 2009, 01:10 AM
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When changing an existing spell instead of building a completely new one it's best to start from the original and not from scratch. You avoid mistakes like building a spell that's better than the original while having a lower drain code that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
As Shapechange is +2 your version should at the very least be +3, if not +4.
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i101
post Jan 16 2009, 01:17 AM
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Thanks for the advice Dragnar. The actual Shapechange has a drain F/2+2 and if we add the drain modificator 'Major Change' (+2), the actual spell version would have a drain of F/2+4. In case that I changed the range from LOS into touch, F/2+2.

BTW: Unfortunately Street Magic doenst describe the differences between 'Minor' and 'Major Changes' (Page 163).. Anyone any comments on this?
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Backgammon
post Jan 16 2009, 01:17 AM
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Hmm... if you really want to change clothing, you'd need to succeed against Object Resistance, as the clothes are not part of your aura, no?
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i101
post Jan 16 2009, 01:28 AM
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@Backgammon: True.. Correct me if I am wrong, Example: A magican that wears a leather jacket, a sword and two foci, would have to succed against an overall treshold from 3 (Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials), all net hits would be used to add 1 to the critters Base attribute Ratings.
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Dragnar
post Jan 16 2009, 01:49 AM
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Shapechange has LOS? *rummages through books* You're quite correct, sir, I missed that. I've not the slightest idea why, as that seems to be a no-brainer to change to touch as that saves on drain without actually making the spell less usefull generally, but you are fully correct.
That way the drain is correct, my apologies.

And the thing about object resistance is a good one. I'd agree setting a threshold (which usually makes effects of the spell less powerful) would be a good rule. And it would mean that you have to cast the spell at a decent force to change your weapon with you. I quite like that.
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crizh
post Jan 16 2009, 03:41 AM
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QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jan 16 2009, 01:17 AM) *
Hmm... if you really want to change clothing, you'd need to succeed against Object Resistance, as the clothes are not part of your aura, no?


Depends how you choose to write the spell. There are a number of Manipulations that affect objects that are not subject to OR, Fashion and Reinforce spring to mind.
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Muspellsheimr
post Jan 16 2009, 05:20 AM
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I never really thought about this before, but actually, by RAW, all spells, including Fashion & Reinforce, are subject to Object Resistance.

Reasoning: Object Resistance applies by RAW to all spells with non-living targets; Fashion, Reinforce, etc. do not specify they ignore this, & thus are not an exception to the rule.
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ornot
post Jan 16 2009, 10:00 AM
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Re: Fashion. That's a brilliant point. I shall bring it up to my players. I have a mage in the group who uses that spell a lot. Fine if he is working from raw materials, but I think I can discourage him from affecting armour this way.
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crizh
post Jan 16 2009, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (BBB p173)
Some spells simply require a Success Test , with hits determining the level of success (as noted in the spells description).


The BBB then goes on to say that some spells are Resisted when cast on creatures or Magical Objects and then describes the Opposed Test used for such spells.

It further explains that Objects are unable to resist said spells and this Opposed Test becomes a Success Test with a Threshold of OR when said spells are cast upon objects.

Both Fashion and Reinforce are unresisted Success Tests and do not, therefore, have to overcome OR.
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i101
post Jan 16 2009, 01:46 PM
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Re: Fashion. Thats why I asked what the differences between Drain modificators 'minor change' and 'major change' are. It is possible that Fashion fits minor change, thus a small physical manipulation spell..
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darthmord
post Jan 16 2009, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (Dragnar @ Jan 15 2009, 08:49 PM) *
Shapechange has LOS? *rummages through books* You're quite correct, sir, I missed that. I've not the slightest idea why, as that seems to be a no-brainer to change to touch as that saves on drain without actually making the spell less usefull generally, but you are fully correct.
That way the drain is correct, my apologies.


Keep in mind that it may be useful to cast a LOS Shapechange on your buddy held in a cage. Shapechange him into a snake so he can slither out between the bars or into a mouse so he can walk out of the cage.
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Warlordtheft
post Jan 16 2009, 05:14 PM
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How about using the turn to goo spell drain for a shapechange spell for the opponent. I remember once in a previous edition after "questioning a guest" we shape changed him into a cat and dropped him off at a local animal shelter. About 3 hours later I dropped the spell, he was a little cramped in that cage I'm sure.
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Muspellsheimr
post Jan 16 2009, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 p174)
Highly processed and artifi cial items are more
diffi cult to aff ect than natural, organic objects. Spells cast
on non-living objects require a Success Test with a threshold
based on the type of object aff ected (see the Object Resistance
Table,).


Spells. Not opposed-test or resisted spells. Spells. Unless the description specifically states otherwise, all spells targeting non-living objects are subject to Object Resistance, even those that are not opposed.
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crizh
post Jan 16 2009, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jan 16 2009, 06:08 PM) *
Spells. Not opposed-test or resisted spells. Spells. Unless the description specifically states otherwise, all spells targeting non-living objects are subject to Object Resistance, even those that are not opposed.


You failed to counter the quote you are responding to and you conveniently ignored the proceeding sentence to the one you use to support your argument.

QUOTE (BBB p174)
A spell cast on a non-living, non-magic target is not resisted....


This follows the proceeding paragraph which deals with spells cast upon 'living, magical' targets that are resisted. All of the subsequent text clearly refers to resisted spells cast upon non-living, non-magic targets.

Reinforce and Fashion remain Success Tests, as specified in their descriptions, and are unresisted.
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ornot
post Jan 16 2009, 10:31 PM
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It makes sense to me that spells affecting non-living material are subject to object resistance. It's a passive threshold, not an opposed roll, hence not resisted.
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crizh
post Jan 16 2009, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE (ornot @ Jan 16 2009, 10:31 PM) *
It makes sense to me that spells affecting non-living material are subject to object resistance. It's a passive threshold, not an opposed roll, hence not resisted.


Your argument is not consistent. If a spell is not 'resisted' then object 'resistance' does not apply.

Object 'resistance' only applies to 'resisted' spells cast on objects.

I'm not sure how the language could be any clearer.
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masterofm
post Jan 16 2009, 10:56 PM
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Is the spell mana based or physical based. Could just totally make this whole argument moot.
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ornot
post Jan 16 2009, 11:03 PM
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'object resistance' =/= object 'resistance'

Surely a roll cannot be considered 'resisted' unless there is an opposing roll.

Or does a threshold increase suggest that a given roll is resisted? In which case build/repair rolls are resisted rolls, which is entirely counter intuitive.

I think the problem stems from the use of the term 'object resistance', but in all honesty, I can't think of another term.

EDIT: Any spell that affects physical matter must be physical by definition, yes?
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Muspellsheimr
post Jan 16 2009, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 p173-174)
Some spells simply require a Success Test, with hits determining
the level of success (as noted in the spell description).
Th e Magic + Spellcasting test must generate at least one net hit
to succeed and may need more if the eff ect has a threshold for
success. Th e spellcaster can always choose to use less than the
total number of hits rolled in a Spellcasting Test.

Spells cast on living or magic targets are oft en resisted,
and an Opposed Test is required. For area spells, the magician
rolls only once, and each target resists the spell separately. Th e
target resists physical spells with Body and mana spells with
Willpower. If the target is also protected by Counterspelling
(p. 175), she may add Counterspelling dice to this resistance

A spell cast on a non-living, non-magic target is not resisted,
as the object has no life force and thus no connection to
mana with which to oppose the casting of the spell (note that
only Physical spells will aff ect non-living objects; mana spells
have no eff ect). Highly processed and artifi cial items are more
diffi cult to aff ect than natural, organic objects. Spells cast
on non-living objects require a Success Test with a threshold
based on the type of object aff ected (see the Object Resistance
Table,). Note that
objects targeted by
Indirect Combat
spells do get to
resist the damage
as they would any
ranged attack, use
only their Armor
rating x 2 (or just
Armor against
spells with elemental
eff ects)
to resist the damage
caused (see
Barriers, p. 157).

Full quote of the section in question. Again, in the section for affecting non-living objects, spells are never resisted. Spells require a Success Test against a threshold equal to the Object Resistance, with the sole exclusion of Indirect spells.

Spells.

Not "Opposed Spells", not "Resisted Spells". The section in question makes no differential between that - any and all spells, specifically excluding Indirect spells, are subject to Object Resistance if they are cast on a non-living target. This includes Fashion, Fix, & Reinforce, among others.
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masterofm
post Jan 16 2009, 11:42 PM
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So... your whole reasoning is that you want a spell that is basically better then shapechange because you can thumb through the create your own spell chart. You know why they don't have equipment as listed as a way to change shape, because it would be lame if it could. You can take quite a few spells and break them over your back by just adding a +1 or +2 to the drain code.

For instance you can have Increase Attribute any attribute for just a pitiful amount of extra drain so you don't need to worry about learning each and every single type of attribute spell and gum up your spell list. Saves you karma, is pretty much the same spell... oh yeah... and is totally stupid and broken for what it can do.
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crizh
post Jan 17 2009, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jan 16 2009, 11:23 PM) *
Full quote of the section in question. Again, in the section for affecting non-living objects, spells are never resisted. Spells require a Success Test against a threshold equal to the Object Resistance, with the sole exclusion of Indirect spells.

Spells.

Not "Opposed Spells", not "Resisted Spells". The section in question makes no differential between that - any and all spells, specifically excluding Indirect spells, are subject to Object Resistance if they are cast on a non-living target. This includes Fashion, Fix, & Reinforce, among others.


Para 1: Some spells are purely success tests that may or may not have a Threshold specified in their individual descriptions.

Para 2: Other spells are resisted by their targets.

Para 3: Objects lack the ability to resist spells in this manner and are granted a number of hits to resist such spells based on complexity. This is resolved as a Success Test against a Threshold of OR.

Paragraph 3 at no point sets aside Paragraph 1 or explicitly states that Paragraph 1 does not apply equaly to objects targeted by 'unresisted' spells.

Additionally the structure, placement and wording of Paragraph 3 clearly indicate that it is a corollary of Paragraph 2 describing the effects of the same class of spell on a different class of targets.

Without text explicitly overriding Paragraph 1 in Paragraph 3 your argument has no foundation.

The text may be poorly constructed but it is clear. To say otherwise is to say the text is contradictory and requires errata.
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Muspellsheimr
post Jan 17 2009, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE (crizh @ Jan 16 2009, 05:09 PM) *
Para 3: Objects lack the ability to resist spells in this manner and are granted a number of hits to resist such spells and require a threshold based on complexity to be affected by a spell. This is resolved as a Success Test against a Threshold of OR.

Paragraph 1: Some spells are success tests, others opposed.
Paragraph 2: Some spells affecting living targets are success tests, others opposed. Detail how opposed functions.
Paragraph 3: Objects cannot resist spells. Spells are handled as a success test with a threshold based on object complexity, with the singular exception of Indirect spells.

Paragraph 3 is complimentary to, but not a continuation of, Paragraph 2. Paragraph 2 details spells vs. living targets, Paragraph 3 details spells vs. non-living targets. It in no way suggests it only applies to opposed spells, & does suggest it applies to all spells in general.
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masterofm
post Jan 17 2009, 12:30 AM
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Why this spell is a bad idea.

- If you can morph equipment why can't you just turn drones into mice and have them scurry around. If you can morph anything into a small animal how the hell can you determine how it will act. "Your equipment" is vague, and if you can morph equipment that means you can morph anything, and if you can morph anything you can morph anything.

Please make magic more broken. Please it totally needs more buffs.
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crizh
post Jan 17 2009, 01:08 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jan 17 2009, 12:23 AM) *
Paragraph 1: Some spells are success tests, others opposed.
Paragraph 2: Some spells affecting living targets are success tests, others opposed. Detail how opposed functions.
Paragraph 3: Objects cannot resist spells. Spells are handled as a success test with a threshold based on object complexity, with the singular exception of Indirect spells.

Paragraph 3 is complimentary to, but not a continuation of, Paragraph 2. Paragraph 2 details spells vs. living targets, Paragraph 3 details spells vs. non-living targets. It in no way suggests it only applies to opposed spells, & does suggest it applies to all spells in general.


Until you stop ignoring Paragraph 1 and provide a satisfactory explanation of where Pragraph 3 explicitly overrides it I'm happy to ignore your opinion on this matter.
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