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#26
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 ![]() |
So don't. Get the hacker to do it instead. It's their damn character. And anyway, it's really not very complicated or time-consuming. Works fine in my group. Yes. 5s and 6s are the absolute top end of commercially-available programs anyway, which is the kind of thing you probably can't get Open Source IRL. The "monthly subscriptions" really aren't very much -- especially as you only have the "monthly subscriptions" for pirated software, which costs 10% of normal price anyway! "It isn't very much" isn't that good of an argument. Why should anyone have to do more bookeeping, and pay more nuyen just to be a hacker? Name one good reason, other than realism. The game needs additional layers of complexity like Dick Cheney needs more helpless orphans to eat alive. Even if they're small layers of complexity, that's not a good reason not to ignore them as a waste of time. TBH, I think the whole thing is just a clumsy way to try and "fix" Agent Smith. People were saying that you could pirate an infinite number of agents and an infinite number of progs for them, and then have an infinite botnet that could nuke the matrix 1000 times before breakfast. By making it so that pirated progs aren't upkeep free, that sort of makes the infinite priate progs idea fail. But I've got a better idea: Just tell your PCs "no agent smith because matrix 3 was fucking stupid, just buy your programs," and there you go. |
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#27
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panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
and i suspect that piracy was introduced in SR4 because people where wondering why software could not be copied when encryptioon was so easy to break.
i guess it proves that one can satisfy everyone... me, im tempted to toss software fully to "fix" this. if only to get people to shut up... |
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#28
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 181 Joined: 14-April 08 From: Tallahassee, FL Member No.: 15,883 ![]() |
How did you come to that conclusion? As far as I can tell, the rules as written apply to all forms of software. As one example, on page 108/109 it talks about which software, when purchsed, has the Copy Protection and Registration options. (These are the things you need to break to create cracked software.) It lists explicitly agents, autosofts, and skillsofts. What you suggest is not an unreasoanble house rule. Particularly with regard to skillsofts. But I don't see any way to claim it is what Unwired said. Joel I'm hoping the skillsoft and autosoft entry gets an errata correction and pulled out. I can't make any sense out of one month I have an expert skill in automatics and a couple months later I'm lucky if I don't blow my foot off because I got a copy of my buddy's program. *In terms of skillsofts, yes, I understand there is a balance reason to prevent the entire team buying a skillwire set and just pooling their money for skillsofts cracked by the hacker.* I just can't think of a good reason it works that way. I mean, what in two months time would make a Trailblazer autosoft detect and follow a trail worse than before? My little drone buddy suddenly can't spot the broken twigs and crumpled grass the boot of a Troll makes in the woods? I really have zero problem with the degradation rules for Common Use and Hacking programs, makes a lot of sense to me for those purposes. Autosoft and skills softs? nope. I house ruled that little entry out. Luckily my players don't abuse it as they know I will come up with a fun (for me) way to screw with them. |
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#29
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 24-July 08 From: Resonance Realms, behind the 2nd Star Member No.: 16,162 ![]() |
Beetle, think about it this way: Better software is programmed and sold, the SOTA rises, your program gets older and can't keep up with the new programs. It doesn't mean that your Encrypt 5 isn't breaking apart and falls down to 4, it's just not effective anymore compared to the new Encrypt 5. The numbers are just changed.
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#30
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 57 Joined: 11-July 07 Member No.: 12,213 ![]() |
Well, perhaps also some parts of the programs can't be run anymore. Look at the old DOS games, can you run them at Vista without special emulators? Now you upgrade your firmware of your skillwire system and some parts of your activsoft can't be run anymore. Ok, you can say: "I don't upgrade my firmware." Great, the hacker nearby you can just use the old exploit which don't really work anymore at your system, because it is a flaw at your firmware.
There are tons of possible reasons, why every software can degenerate in a world, where everything can change in an nanosec. |
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#31
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 8-January 09 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 16,747 ![]() |
If you really want to piss off the hacker, the latest patch or version of the code they purchase can be buggy or malware.
A lot of the rules in Unwired may make the game more realistic, but in the end, it's up to the GM whether they're part of the game or not. Given that in my group they rely on NPC hackers, I'm not about to penalize them for the programs they do have, since they're more interested in magic and missiles than the matrix. |
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#32
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 691 Joined: 27-February 08 From: Pismo Beach, CA Member No.: 15,715 ![]() |
One thing, where are people getting this -10% cost from for pirated software? I seem to remember it, but I've been up and down Unwired and can't find a damn thing about it. Then again, I can't seem to find the passage in the BBB about the "SINles Amnesty" program following the second crash anymore either...
One thing to keep in mind about the Registered vs Pirated thing is that most hacking programs aren't illegal--just restricted. In fact, it seems the only software you can't get a legal, registered copy of (with the appropriate licenses and SIN), are malware programs, BTL's, and a couple of the software bundles. (Which is funny, since their components are all restricted, not forbidden.) Even frigging Juhseung Saja, which black hammers you, hacks your link, reads your contact list, and then kills your entire family can be bought legally as a registered program, provided you have a license for black IC and hacking software. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) On a semi-related note, anyone gone over the costs for pre-packaged IC and noticed it doesn't follow the pricing scheme listed? At All? The book says total cost of the package x 0.9, but the listed prices are so different I can't even reverse-engineer them to figure out how they got the costs that they did. Between that and the availability shifts I'm being reminded of the Cyberware Suites in Arsenal. |
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#33
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,188 Joined: 9-February 08 From: Boiling Springs Member No.: 15,665 ![]() |
What I want to know is why is your software is transmitting it's ID to everyone in range. I can understand software going online and getting updates, but you can set programs today to NOT automatically update. Otherwise, why get any regular software? Just buy cracked software after character creation.
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#34
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 57 Joined: 11-July 07 Member No.: 12,213 ![]() |
Unwired page 94, Downloading programs
There is mentioned, that your pirated software only costs 10% and also the rules about the patches. |
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#35
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 691 Joined: 27-February 08 From: Pismo Beach, CA Member No.: 15,715 ![]() |
It's not. Registered software makes it easier to track a person because the regular updates leave a datatrail. You can disable the Registration option if you want, but then the program degrades like every other non-registered copy.
You could turn off registration just while you're on runs, and then update all at once when you're back at your house, but it's still going to leave your comcode and SIN in the update server's registry, which makes it the first place to look when trying to track someone. |
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#36
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 8-January 09 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 16,747 ![]() |
What I want to know is why is your software is transmitting it's ID to everyone in range. I can understand software going online and getting updates, but you can set programs today to NOT automatically update. Otherwise, why get any regular software? Just buy cracked software after character creation. It isn't that the registered software is transmitting its ID everywhere, it's the fact that it is tied to a particular SIN, and when the program is run the system logs will show that the software is registered to that SIN. It just leaves a highly visible data trail, and makes it likely that it'll stop getting the free updates (and thus begin to degrade), and if used again, will likely be picked up and traced quickly. |
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#37
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,188 Joined: 9-February 08 From: Boiling Springs Member No.: 15,665 ![]() |
It isn't that the registered software is transmitting its ID everywhere, it's the fact that it is tied to a particular SIN, and when the program is run the system logs will show that the software is registered to that SIN. It just leaves a highly visible data trail, and makes it likely that it'll stop getting the free updates (and thus begin to degrade), and if used again, will likely be picked up and traced quickly. What if you have the SINner negative quality, but don't use hacking programs? How vulnerable are you? |
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#38
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Awakened Asset ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 ![]() |
and i suspect that piracy was introduced in SR4 because people where wondering why software could not be copied when encryptioon was so easy to break. It´s a pretty good thing to have, this SOTA/piracy. Hackers who deal with it by paying need their head examined. Opt-in on Open Source, and everyone else goes for rating 4, also no book-keeping. (Besides: I don´t really get that complaint, at all. One jots down two numbers instead of one when buying softs, no biggie. No soft will ever be allowed to degrade, yes?) My suspicion is that the rule is supposed to make hackers more affordable. No more 22 BP of ressources for commlink and programs, more money for hacking implants. If that wasn´t the intent, well, it still works that way. QUOTE i guess it proves that one can satisfy everyone... me, im tempted to toss software fully to "fix" this. if only to get people to shut up... While I get where you are coming from, that idea actually works. Slightly too little detail for me, but it works. |
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#39
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 ![]() |
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#40
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Birmingham, UK Member No.: 13,515 ![]() |
What you suggest is not an unreasoanble house rule. Particularly with regard to skillsofts. But I don't see any way to claim it is what Unwired said. Just checked: Unwired limits the application of the Registration and Copy Protection things to Common, Hacking, Autosoft, Simsense. Hmm. Apparently I'm wrong. Bummer. This came about because one of my players pointed out that it was really very odd for skillsoft programs to get out of date. Still, only Hacking programs degrade monthly; Common, Autosoft and Simsense degrade once every two months. Apparently I houserule something I didn't realise I'd houseruled. Oh well! Why should anyone have to do more bookeeping, and pay more nuyen just to be a hacker? Name one good reason, other than realism. Because hackers (have the potential to) take up way more time than any single other character type and exclude most other characters while they do so. A little bookkeeping equalises things a bit. Also it provides the opportunity for smartarse non-hackers who keep a suite of programs all at Rating 6 to discover that they've got a trojan and their commlink's now part of a proxy network for an elaborate money-laundering scam. At least in my games. The game needs additional layers of complexity like Dick Cheney needs more helpless orphans to eat alive. Precisely! Without additional complexity/orphans, Shadowrun/Cheney will soon discover their powers fading and will sink into obscurity. *grin* Just tell your PCs "no agent smith because matrix 3 was fucking stupid, just buy your programs," and there you go. I hate the GM-fiat approach to stuff. When your argument boils down to "because I say so" I feel like you've lost the cooperative nature of RPGing. I'd rather run my game like a constitutional monarchy than a benevolent dictatorship. One thing, where are people getting this -10% cost from for pirated software? Pg. 94, Unwired: Downloading the program to your commlink or terminal costs 10 percent of the street price of the program (see Program Costs and Availability, p. 228, SR4). |
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#41
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,263 Joined: 4-March 08 From: Blighty Member No.: 15,736 ![]() |
My suspicion is that the rule is supposed to make hackers more affordable. No more 22 BP of ressources for commlink and programs, more money for hacking implants. If that wasn´t the intent, well, it still works that way. Word of God is, if I recall correctly, that you pay full normal price for Programs at chargen even if they're cracked. Y'know, it's this balance thing. |
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#42
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panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
While I get where you are coming from, that idea actually works. Slightly too little detail for me, but it works. the way i envision it is to give each comlink a response related pool of points. these points are then allocated to tasks (stealth, firewall, attack and so on), acting as a kind of limiter on the number of dice rolled, or something like that. agents will eat up points tanks to it needing them both for their own smarts, and for their internal "tasks", and only the controller can reallocate these. botnets act like a pool enlarger, but when deployed risk having part of it shut down by GOD depending on how much of it one access (a botnets best bet for long term survival is to stay silent). one can either freely allocate when performing a test, or take a action or reallocate. note that one cant set a default allocation that things will drop back to after a test (so if you borrow points from firewall or stealth to perform that uber-exploit, you better use a action to allocate things right back or you will be wide open when the IC come knocking). |
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#43
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Awakened Asset ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 ![]() |
@Hobgoblin: An old post of mine. You could also have a look at Moon-Hawk´s system, which is really good at keeping things simple.
In the words of the man: [ Spoiler ]
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#44
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 181 Joined: 14-April 08 From: Tallahassee, FL Member No.: 15,883 ![]() |
Beetle, think about it this way: Better software is programmed and sold, the SOTA rises, your program gets older and can't keep up with the new programs. It doesn't mean that your Encrypt 5 isn't breaking apart and falls down to 4, it's just not effective anymore compared to the new Encrypt 5. The numbers are just changed. I understand that completely and have no issue of degradation of Common Use and Hacking Programs *see last part of my previous post* My issue is solely with autosoft/skillsoft suffering from degradation. To avoid repeating myself, just re-read my previous post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) It's just that under any scenario I can come up with my head, degradation for auto/skillsoft makes no sense to me, at least in terms of the time line given. A couple of years, sure to a degree depending on the type, but a couple of months no. Say for example a Repair (Automobile) skillsoft is not going to make me less effective at turning a wrench, reading a volt meter or changing a timing belt in 1-5 months if I hacked it and gave it to my employees. Hell GM has been making the same damn 350 engine for over thirty years with very little modification. I may not have the patch for the latest Eurocar 3000 GT-R Spec V when it comes out, but I'll probably have the one for the Eurocar 3000 GT-R and can probably extrapolate the Spec V has bigger brakes, larger Turbos, different compression ratio, beefier suspension. I may not know off the top of my skillsoft/head what the exact parameters are, still doesn't mean I can't pull the thing out, poke around a minute and determine the turbo uses X psi at a certain RPM range. Of course I expect by 2070's the repair manual will be in a file on the ECU that's available when plugged into the appropriate device. |
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#45
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panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
@Hobgoblin: An old post of mine. You could also have a look at Moon-Hawk´s system, which is really good at keeping things simple. In the words of the man: [ Spoiler ] many minds think alike? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) in any case, it seems we all want to turn the hacking into more of a chess game. a question of continually wondering if one have ones defenses in order when going on the offensive. |
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#46
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 ![]() |
Word of God is, if I recall correctly, that you pay full normal price for Programs at chargen even if they're cracked. Y'know, it's this balance thing. That doesn't work. You just save up 1200 Nuyen from chargen for the modifier and spend 5K on a medium lifestyle, and then you've got good odds to end up with enough nuyen to buy all the cracked programs you want with (4d6+12)x500 Nuyen starting money. |
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#47
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,188 Joined: 9-February 08 From: Boiling Springs Member No.: 15,665 ![]() |
@Hobgoblin & Ryu: How would a non-hacker protect himself? Right now I can load up on IC and while I may not be perfectly protected, I can get enough of a warning that I can turn off the wireless and shut the hacker out.
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#48
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panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
@Hobgoblin & Ryu: How would a non-hacker protect himself? Right now I can load up on IC and while I may not be perfectly protected, I can get enough of a warning that I can turn off the wireless and shut the hacker out. allocate most resources to firewall and IC? maybe toss a automated analyze task in there for detection and warning. for me its mostly a mental exercise, and not something i have really fleshed out. im still pondering things like encryption, specifically communication encryption (more resources allocated would result in better security, but the devil is as always in the details). |
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#49
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 ![]() |
Why should anyone have to do more bookeeping, and pay more nuyen just to be a hacker? Name one good reason, other than realism. T Because hackers (have the potential to) take up way more time than any single other character type and exclude most other characters while they do so. A little bookkeeping equalises things a bit. Duh... wha? Let me paraphrase that to make sure I understand your argument. 1) Hackers take up too much time. 2) Therefore, we should add bookeeping, so they take up MORE time. Like, seriously? That's the craziest thing I've ever heard. Hacking rules should be kept short and sweet if you don't want hackers to dominate game time. Remember that everything the Hacker does takes up GM time -- saying "I want to roll to hack the patch for my pirated prog" is a DETRIMENT to the other players, not an "equalizer." I agree with your first premise, but the logical conclusion to draw from it is that optional rules should be cut out in favor of streamlining the system. The hacker wants to take up extra time dealing with pirated programs and patches and shit? Too bad. Tell him to buy the programs at book price, or write them himself, and shut his gob. QUOTE Also it provides the opportunity for smartarse non-hackers who keep a suite of programs all at Rating 6 to discover that they've got a trojan and their commlink's now part of a proxy network for an elaborate money-laundering scam. At least in my games. Well, if you're talking about springing random "consequences" on PCs just to torment them, then I'm against that. I think it's the hallmark of a bad GM. But if you mean plot-related things, that is you'd only trigger the trojan on them if you meant for it to lead to some action and adventure, then that's ok. But I don't think you need stupid bookeeping rules to do that, you can just handwave it. As long as it's a fun time, your PCs shouldn't complain. QUOTE Precisely! Without additional complexity/orphans, Shadowrun/Cheney will soon discover their powers fading and will sink into obscurity. *grin* I think this is supposed to be a joke, but I don't exactly get it. All I hear is that you're saying more complexity = necessary for Shadowrun to stay afloat. I call bullshit on that one. QUOTE I hate the GM-fiat approach to stuff. When your argument boils down to "because I say so" I feel like you've lost the cooperative nature of RPGing. I'd rather run my game like a constitutional monarchy than a benevolent dictatorship. I'd rather run my game like an author cooperatively writing a story than like a government of any sort. The hacker doesn't get to waste our time with extra bookeeping, why? Because that's a distraction from the plot, it has nothing to do with anything, it's just simulationist, techno-fetishist masturbation. If PCs complain about handwaving, you just have to tell them "settle down guys, this is leading somewhere interesting." The cooperative nature of RPGing is about the GM creating situations, and the players advancing the plot by roleplaying within those situations. Now, I understand that there are GMs who cannot prevent themselves from doing everything they can to fuck the players in their cornholes, because they're sadists at heart. If you're one of those GMs, then by all means, stick to the rules. There are also players who think that the goal of the game is to "win" by beating the GM's NPCs, a la Dungeons and Dragons. If you have those kinds of players, you'd better stick to the rules by the letter. But IMO, if that's the gaming situation you have, D&D 4e is your game. Everything is pre-programmed, and everything is totally fair as long as you follow the rules, not much fiat required. But Shadowrun is not a game of quests and dungeon crawls, it simulates a living, breathing world which moves at a super-modern fast pace. Things escalate in ways that would be impossible in D&D, and for this reason it's impossible to have a fair relationship between the players and GM. Even if you follow every rule, the GM can always win, so adversarial playing is a complete waste of time. You have to start off, from the beginning, realizing that the bad stuff that happens to the players is an obstacle to overcome which is supposed to create fun, not a vessel for the GM's sadism. If people can't get past that, then I think they're in the wrong game. |
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#50
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 8-January 09 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 16,747 ![]() |
I'd rather run my game like an author cooperatively writing a story than like a government of any sort. The hacker doesn't get to waste our time with extra bookeeping, why? Because that's a distraction from the plot, it has nothing to do with anything, it's just simulationist, techno-fetishist masturbation. If PCs complain about handwaving, you just have to tell them "settle down guys, this is leading somewhere interesting." The cooperative nature of RPGing is about the GM creating situations, and the players advancing the plot by roleplaying within those situations. Now, I understand that there are GMs who cannot prevent themselves from doing everything they can to fuck the players in their cornholes, because they're sadists at heart. If you're one of those GMs, then by all means, stick to the rules. There are also players who think that the goal of the game is to "win" by beating the GM's NPCs, a la Dungeons and Dragons. If you have those kinds of players, you'd better stick to the rules by the letter. But IMO, if that's the gaming situation you have, D&D 4e is your game. Everything is pre-programmed, and everything is totally fair as long as you follow the rules, not much fiat required. But Shadowrun is not a game of quests and dungeon crawls, it simulates a living, breathing world which moves at a super-modern fast pace. Things escalate in ways that would be impossible in D&D, and for this reason it's impossible to have a fair relationship between the players and GM. Even if you follow every rule, the GM can always win, so adversarial playing is a complete waste of time. You have to start off, from the beginning, realizing that the bad stuff that happens to the players is an obstacle to overcome which is supposed to create fun, not a vessel for the GM's sadism. If people can't get past that, then I think they're in the wrong game. How is handwaving any different than GM fiat? And as for distracting from the plot, I find it sometimes useful to remind the players that there are consequences for their actions (both in character and out). Running the game as a cooperative author only works when the players do as well. Sometimes you just have to deal with the players who choose the read every book out there to come up with the "perfect" ass-kicking character capable of handling anything you throw at them, and not caring about the theme or mood or story you are trying to tell. I've had that problem before, and the player claimed the character to have amnesia to get out of writing a background for the character as well. Since he wanted so badly to rules-lawyer, I let him, but just piled on all the restrictions and complications I could to remind him that he doesn't exist in a vacuum, and the point of the game isn't GM vs players. And sometimes fiat is required, namely whenever you run into a situation that isn't strictly covered in the rules, and arguing starts breaking out over how rules should be interpreted. At that point, the GM steps in and makes a decision. It becomes that way, because that's what the GM says. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 17th May 2025 - 03:17 AM |
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