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Cain
post Apr 19 2009, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE
And to forestall the inevitable response... I use to be the guy that would optimize the hell out of my characters because I could (in some cases it was because I was told that there was no way that I could design characters that would break the campaign... After smugly and completely destroying several campaigns with characters that I created (AS STARTING CHARACTERS), I started to think)... eventually, I realized that it was not a lot of fun for those around me when I could "do it all"... it removed the fun for the rest of the group around the table... as a result, I took a look at my motivations and eventually realized that the group's fun was what it was all about, and thus scaled back the craziness in my character creation...

Again, that's a player fault, not a character one. Just because you have a character that could theoretically break the game for everyone, doesn't mean that you will do so. Most Dumpshock characters could break a game without trying, the players simply choose to not do so. Heck, a bad player will break a game faster than a powerful character will.

Like I said before, I'd rather see a power munchkin than a drama queen in my games, even though the power munchkin has the more powerful character. He's less of a disruption than the drama queen.
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ElFenrir
post Apr 19 2009, 06:49 PM
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Also, breaking the game has many meanings. It's very difficult, IMO, to make a character from the start who can break a game power-wise in EVERY possible situation.

I mean, Character A may be able to own all in combat with nary a scratch, but they probably won't be able to completely own at social, vehicle, technical, or stealth related skills(well, maybe Infiltration due to it's Agility link and stuff like Chameleon coating.) Likewise, uberface might be able to talk bullets out of the air, but they won't really be breaking the game for the combat characters.

I suppose if you really, really, tried and twinked your ass off you might be able to make a character that owns all hardcore in a couple of places, but there simply isn't enough points, even in 750 chargen, to make a character that's a god at everything right out of the gate.

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 19 2009, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 19 2009, 12:41 PM) *
Again, that's a player fault, not a character one. Just because you have a character that could theoretically break the game for everyone, doesn't mean that you will do so. Most Dumpshock characters could break a game without trying, the players simply choose to not do so. Heck, a bad player will break a game faster than a powerful character will.

Like I said before, I'd rather see a power munchkin than a drama queen in my games, even though the power munchkin has the more powerful character. He's less of a disruption than the drama queen.



I think that you miss my point, but that is okay...

Both extremes that you posit are problem characters, definitely...

The Powermonger can overshadow others without even meaning to do so, which is my point (no one else is generally given the chance to accomplish things)... The Drama Queen can detract from the game if they are too much of a Drama Queen... (GM having to pay too much attention to the character)...

And my point about the Power character (with the Dice Pools of whatever exotic level you choose to create) is that he may not mean to overshadow others, he just tends to do so without thinking about it...

Example... Whay would anyone EVER attempt to do anything social with your Pornomancer? EVER? In the most likely scenario, they would metagame and just let you take care of it, because you are SO much better at it than they are, even if they were the ones to come up with the idea for whatever social thing that is going on... It may not be that much of a problem for YOU in your game, but any new player coming along would be intimidated and would probably NEVER even put points into the skill set that you are so hyper powerful in... this is what I mean by it being a bad thing... you have just stifled someone without ever intending to do so...

It generates an immediate reaction to the character... and I contend that it tends to be a bad reaction... Maybe not always (you may get the "Cool, way to go" comment on occassion), but in my experience, these types of characters (unless that is the scope of the campaign) tend to draw negative attention...

Just my 2 cents again... Adjusted for inflation
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Cain
post Apr 19 2009, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE
The Powermonger can overshadow others without even meaning to do so, which is my point (no one else is generally given the chance to accomplish things)... The Drama Queen can detract from the game if they are too much of a Drama Queen... (GM having to pay too much attention to the character)...

And my point about the Power character (with the Dice Pools of whatever exotic level you choose to create) is that he may not mean to overshadow others, he just tends to do so without thinking about it...

You can deal with the powermonger much more easily, though. The rules can help you slow them down, and they don't tend to cause interpersonal conflicts. Drama Queens are much worse.

QUOTE
Example... Whay would anyone EVER attempt to do anything social with your Pornomancer? EVER? In the most likely scenario, they would metagame and just let you take care of it, because you are SO much better at it than they are, even if they were the ones to come up with the idea for whatever social thing that is going on...

Why pick up a gun skill, if you've got a powerful street sammie in your group? Why pick up matrix abilities, when you have a skilled decker in your group? Heck, you don't need a pornomancer for your example, an ordinary Face means the same thing.

Shadowrun has always been about teams of specialists, working together. Cross-training is its own reward, regardless of rather you have a face or pornomancer in your party.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 19 2009, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 19 2009, 02:00 PM) *
Why pick up a gun skill, if you've got a powerful street sammie in your group? Why pick up matrix abilities, when you have a skilled decker in your group? Heck, you don't need a pornomancer for your example, an ordinary Face means the same thing.

Shadowrun has always been about teams of specialists, working together. Cross-training is its own reward, regardless of rather you have a face or pornomancer in your party.


Granted... teams is where it is at... but if you never have the opportunity to use that skill that you just bought, then it is a waste of resources...

Just saying
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Cain
post Apr 20 2009, 12:04 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 19 2009, 12:33 PM) *
Granted... teams is where it is at... but if you never have the opportunity to use that skill that you just bought, then it is a waste of resources...

Just saying

My latest mage has yet to shoot anyone, despite the fact that she has the Pistols skill and always goes about armed. I wouldn't consider it a waste of resources, though. Just because the samurai has a combat dice pool of 20+ doesn't mean she can't contribute in a gunfight. Similarly, you can always help the Face out, even if you can't match his social skills; there might be more than one person who needs to be talked to.

Bottom line: huge dice pools only break the game if the player makes it a problem. If you've got good players-- or the patience to help people learn to become good players-- then it's not an issue.
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Dumori
post Apr 20 2009, 01:16 AM
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I'm running a game 1250 karma gen. With a 'GMPC' for my amusement. My PC rolls 26-28 dice with his sniper rifle. The others are just as dangerus with one one persed Mage with atrbutes of around 15. Now my job is to both challenge and have the game fun. So far it's all be soicaly based but even in combat the teams job. It will be do able. One I'm running this gamefir the fun and for the roleplaying being know to be that good gives. I'm playing in a 250BP game as a free spirit his pools are 'GIMPED' rolling a max of 5. But again it's for the RP. I know my spirit will need luck and help to survive any thing. But both are play able. Ok is inherntly better as a charctor ability wise. One will challenge me RP wise. Both will be fun. It's a given that my sniper will have more flair. But personality isn't a obvious winner to be seen. One was a min/max one wasn't I'll leave it up to you to guess who. I'm with Cain on this one.
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suppenhuhn
post Apr 20 2009, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (Dumori @ Apr 20 2009, 03:16 AM) *
I'm playing in a 250BP game as a free spirit his pools are 'GIMPED' rolling a max of 5.

Uh, how do you get to roll 5 dice with 2 in every attribute and no skills?
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Dumori
post Apr 20 2009, 08:44 PM
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35 BP form qualities.... and sorry its a 4 it was a 5 before but I lowered to pick up another skill.
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