I never groked how exactly flechette ammo works.

I mean, does a flechette round fragments the moment it is fired ? Or does it just fragments the moment it contacts the target?

In this fig. it seems to fragment upon approaching the target, but I dont think its the case in SR.

Flechettes don't fragment at all. A flechette round is a round where, instead of having a single bullet on top of a propellant charge, you have a cluster of metal needles on top of a propellant charge. It's basically a small shotgun shell, only with needles instead of pellets. It turns flesh into a bloody mess, but has less penetrative effect against body armor than normal ammo.

i think they're small fin-stabilized darts. either way, though, as tanegar said, they act in the same way as a shotgun

While we're on the subject, could somebody sell me on the little buggers?

Mechanically, they're gel rounds that do Physical damage instead, but cost over thrice as much. They cost as much as ex-EX rounds, but they're vastly inferior in all respects save availability and legality.

Something I'm missing here?

When you find the one person on the planet who doesn't wear armor, you'll kill the crap out of them. When you're fighting critters, who also don't wear armor, you kill the crap out of them. When you're fighting someone you can throw away 8 or more dice on called shots to bypass armor and still hit reliably, you'll kill the crap out of them.

I think that I see a pattern developing...

There is no possibility of flechette blowing up in your gun like Ex-Ex.

Joking aside, remember that they are resisted with Impact armor not Ballistic. Most people have lower Impact armor, and its therefore easier to get past via a called shot.

Assuming the character is capable of that called shot... which is usually not all that hard against the Impact rating, admittedly...
I withdraw my caveat...

Flichette is +2 DV, +5 AP (Impact).

Typically, Impact is 2 points lower than Ballistic, so the actual stats in most circumstances would be akin to +2 DV, +3 AP.

With average rolls, this basically comes out to +1 DV (post resistance).


With Ex-Ex, you have +1 DV, -1 AP.

With average rolls, this basically comes out to +1.33 DV (post resistance).


While there are no mechanics for it, Ex-Ex are loud. In addition, Ex-Ex can destroy your weapon & injure you on a critical glitch - flichette will just disable the weapon (or similar).


Against unarmored opponents, the +5 AP does absolutely nothing, & flechette are vastly superior.

I would also like to point out that as of SR4A, Gel Rounds are -1 DV, not +2.

Let me get this strait
- 1 little metal dart = -4 AP
- many little metal darts = +5 AP
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

You have now mastered how to write combat rules just like an SR Dev. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Its like the difference between a pick and a tenderizer. The tenderizer has a bunch of sharp points but that pick has one sharp point thats focused hence doing more damage on one spot instead of spread out and not as good.

Take a board, hammer a bunch of nails through it, and go lie down on the points.

Now take another board and put a single nail through it, turn it over so that it's point up, and go lie on that.



-karma

It's not an issue of pressure. It's an issue of velocity. Put all the energy of the round behind a single metal dart, and the muzzle velocity is quite high. Put it behind 50 darts, and the muzzle velocity of each dart is going to be a lot lower. That lower velocity for each dart means each dart carries less kenetic energy, which means the armor has an easier time dissipating the energy of each individual dart's impact. Admittedly, the strain placed on the armor by the large number of impacts is going to serve to weaken the armor, but compared to how effectively the single projectile will defeat it, the effect is minimal.

Comparing real world weapons to SR weapons is pretty pointless. That said, I'll go ahead and do it.

Real world flechettes don't work that well, US military went back to buckshot for 40mm canister rounds after some combat use of flechettes. They should have pretty good penetration of soft armor, but data is kind of lacking.

Weapons firing single flechettes are apparently pretty much totally useless, they apparently have no stopping power at all.

Flechettes in artillery shells or rockets are a whole other matter. They are pretty damn lethal, Though the current 120mm canister is essentially tungsten buckshot and I'd assume they tried out flechettes before going with shot.

I have another reason to use flechettes...style. I mean flechettes are cool. And they do have a slight advantage over FMJ rounds, so why not use 'em?

The way I read SR4 (and SR4A), flechettes is GENERIC term for "lots of tiny projectiles". They can be of any shape, such as mini darts for a slivergun, or buckshot such as a shotgun, or "pineapple chunks" from a grenade. The devs did not differentiate between any of those different types (which in the real world behave VERY differently), but instead went with a more simplified model. I can live with that!

Just a fun piece of information RL.

I subscribe to a catalog called, Cheaper Than Dirt. They sell wholesale ammunition and every accesory for firearms ever made, Black guns like AR's and the like. Guess what's on sale per the pound on the front cover this month. Here's how the add as it reads.

Originally military flechettes that were so deadly the U.S thought they would be against the Geneva Convention! In the 1960's the U.S army began early development work on Flechette weapons. The thought was to fire these wicked steel darts and cause massive causalities among the enemy. Flechettes are 1" long hardened steel nails with fins and number approximately 950 darts per pound. These were experimental for the m203 grenade launcher and 12ga shotgun. These rounds had tremendous military advantages as they were lighter than standard rounds, had much lower recoil and could penetrate body armor. We are not recommending that you load these or try to weaponize them. They represent the ultimate military weapon and a unique historical item. Great conversation piece and sold by the pound. 29.97 per pound.

LMAO now that is a class salesmanship hope you guys get a kick out of this i did.

unfortunately the army no longer uses the buckshot rounds for the 40mm M203. all you see anymore these days are TP blue-tipped orange-paint training rounds, HEDP (high explosive dual purpose) and illum rounds of varying kinds. (lemme check my wall locker for a couple examples) looks like some star parachutes and you can get em in white, red, green, purple, or yellow.
more often, when it comes to buckshot in calibers of 40mm or nearer you find the civilian 37mm rubber buckshot and slug rounds, more commonly seen in the armories of prison control and other law enforcement (particularly used in riots, such as the WTO riots in seattle around 7 or 8 years ago).

flechettes always get points for style, though. thats why i always end up with a rem. roomsweeper somewhere in my arsenal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
actually, there is a relatively new weapon out on the market quite similar. a pistol that shoots shotgun rounds- though this one is a revolver. this actually fires true shotgun ammunitions although i have always loaded the first two rounds in my taurus M85 with snakeshot which achieves a similar effect though much weaker.

http://www.taurususa.com/whatsnew/revolvers.cfm

interestingly, this bypasses the laws surrounding the minimum length of shotgun barrels due to the fact that, unlike most shotguns, it has a rifled barrel, while the law covers smooth-bore scatterguns only.

(btw being new, could someone send me a PM telling me how to include a link without having to post the ugly hyper text addy?)

its cuz of the Hague Convention we can't use em, thank you very much! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) same reason we can't use hollowpoints, flamethrowers and hyperbaric weapons (even though we still have em and use em when no one's lookin)
NATO, and by extension, the US military is only allowed to use ball ammo. all the other cool drek we get has to be used on equipment which is why we always say,
"what? i was aiming for the radio on his back!"
"but he was facing you..."
"well i still hit the radio, didnt i?"

What about aircraft carriers they are out right baned so they call them some silly name to bypass that. Forgot the name though.

also, after the Status Of Forces Agreement we aren't allowed to run combat operations without hauling some iraqi army unit(s) along with us to put an iraqi face on the op so we simply changed the names of our ops to get around it. (ie a combat logistics patrol is now a convoy logistics patrol, a combat patrol is now a presence patrol)
pentagon spin doctors, gotta love em

Hey, they gotta keep their jobs somehow...

Now THAT is funny.

I can understand using flechette with shotguns but using them with handguns and rifles would require using very thin needles wich would have very low mass and so very low inertia, resulting in being easily deflected away from the intended path (fogliage maybe even raindrops, or bouncing on walls) causing the affected area being unpredictable and potentialy to be source of collateral damage; probably hollowpoints are the only realitical way to go.