War is very serious drek.

Not for background. Unless we're talking Verdun style mass battles over months, most of the background from a battle won't last long, or be particularly high - there simply are not that many soldiers dieing in those kind of wars anymore.

Fuchs is correct. Battlefield background count isn't that bad, in most cases, because battles are not usually prolonged engagements with high casualty rates anymore. There are exceptions, as Aztlan has proved. But that included slash-and-burn tactics, chemical warfare, mass killing, spirit warfare, and engagements over the same territory for decades.

Any battle significant enough to field tanks (multiple numbers of very costly weaponry backed by very expensive support as well) in the conflict is a major battle and a major battle is enough for Rating 3 for the next hundred years.

So what would be the BC during and immediately after the battle? I would say a lot higher.

In the Yucatan, the background count of the astral space over the area increased more or less permanently. What would be the temporary background count that was generated during those clashes?

Or in other words: Killing soldiers in battle simply does not rank high (or at all) on nature's "toxic scale".

By that definition half of Europe would be BC 3. WW2 alone would turn Berlin, Caen, Dieppe, all of the Bretagne, most of crete and Sicily, Monte Casino, Dunkirch, Most of Eastern Europe, in particular Budapest, Warshaw, Kiew, Kursk, Orel, and any other significant town on the Eastern front as well as dozens of western cities into areas with BC 3. Paris would be BC 3 (battle of 1814, and again in 1871). Then add the Eurowars, and you'd have even more areas contaminated.

Nowhere does it state that the default background rating for Europe is 3. The game doesn't assume that most euorpean mages are effectively operating under such conditions, so batltes can't create BCs on that scale.

It might not rank high on the toxic scale. But it is significant on the background count. BC 1 is bad enough considering that even for a Magic 5 character, it is a 20% decrease in his Magic. What would a BC of 3 do to a normal mage? A reduction of 50 to 100% Magic.

It does not need to state that the default background count rating for Europe is 3. You simply need to refer to the Domain Examples on p 121 SM and there you go. Remember that all those battles in WW2 no longer qualify for BC3 since they are >100 years from 2070.

Also following your logic, since the game does not state that level of BC most Chicago mages operate under, therefore they do not. Which is certainly up to you as the GM to handwave it off.

I consider the idea that a major battle turns the area into BC3 for the next hundred years - which by the Eurowars alone would make south and eastern Europe a "don't worry about mages, they can't do much here" area - as conflicting with canon descriptions of Europe's countries. It's also rather improbable that after hundred years a BC drops from 3 to zero.

Someone messed up - either the ones writing the sourcebooks covering all those towns, for neglecting to state "Oh, and btw, all over here is BC3" - or the ones making the BC table. I also think that someone would have mentioned the BC, if up until 2045 most of Europe would have been very anti-magical.

from tank stats to background count, how do we do it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Back ground count as I recall degrades pretty quickly, unless the source or cause is prolonged. Auschwitz has a permanent BC of 6 (as I recall). Meanwhile a murdersite might have a BC of 1 or 2 (depending on how violent and painfult it was), however it may last an hour or two, a day or so for 1 time mass murders.

In a battle (modern) it may not be the entire battle field with BC, it would be a fort, building, bunker or such where extensive fighting took place.

I'll have to look over Street Magic when I get home. Because toturi's examples certainly don't match the writer's intent (seeing as how I was the writer).

Bah, you're only the writer, like your intent matters in the discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Though, I'm with ya hobgoblin. I love how we went from tanks to background count also. heh.

The examples on p121 are quite clear and explicit. By all means, do tell us what your intentions were.

I'm guessing you're pointing at the Domain examples on page 121. When I say "major battle" there, I mean a battle of historical importance and significant scale. A battle where tanks were present doesn't necessarily qualify. Regions of the Ardennes Mountains, where the Battle of the Bulge took place, would qualify. Sections of Iwo Jima would certainly qualify (and some areas would be Rating 4 Domains where there are memorials to the battle).

These battles not only affected the soldiers present, but left a lasting impact on humanity resulting in them being remembered for decades and centuries. That's the kind of thing that impacts Astral Space significantly.

Less significant battles will produce background count and possibly even aspected background count (making them Domains), but they won't last nearly as long unless something is sustaining them like continued battling on the site or memorials.

Can you think of a tank battle in the 6th world that will not be of historical importance or significant scale? Sure, a battle between tank platoons may not generate as much BC, but a clash of battalion sized or larger armor forces?

But that is not my primary point. My point was that if a battle still leaves such a Background Count about slightly less than 100 years after the fact, how high was the Background Count then?

Your original position didn't mention a clash of battalion sized forces:



That's the part I was disagreeing with. Tanks are fielded in battles much smaller than battalion-sized clashes. So saying that a battle that fields tanks is significant enough to generate a Rating 3 Domain for the next hundred years is the part I was responding to.



Roughly the same, possibly a rating point higher, possibly a rating point lower. The idea isn't that the Background Count in these situations has been degrading over time, it's that the event was significant enough to humanity or the Gaiasphere to be maintained at its original level. In some cases, the background count of the original event will be less, because it's the psychological and emotional impact on humanity after the fact that strengthens the background count.

Which basically means killing soldiers in battle is not going to rock the astral boat much unless sometime (usually after the battle) humanity decides that this killing was very, very special.

Tanks may be fielded in battles smaller than battalion size but while one company may be holding the fort here, the other companies of the battalion will generally be out wrecking havoc on some other part of the battlefield. Taken as a whole, what would be the smallest armored battle group in a time of war?

Which is a trick question actually... To the best of my knowledge, an armored battle group generally refers to a battalion sized unit with attendant support.

Which doesn't detract from the possibility that the Background Count of the original event may be much more but the psychological and emotional impact on humanity after the fact may so small as to cause that initial wound in the astral to gradually fade, does it?

For example an entire village is wiped out from the face of the planet by a military strike but there is nobody to mourn them. The initial impact may be genocide, but that impact gradually weakens because there is no one around to remember. Does Background Count gradually fade if there are no longer any emotional or psychological impact associated with the area after the initial event?

I tend to think it's helpful to imagine background count rating as being scales of magnitude, like the Richter scale for earthquakes. The amount of psycho-emotive trauma to go from Rating 1 background count to Rating 2 background count may not be much, but the amount needed to go from Rating 5 to Rating 6 is considerable. But yes, the original event could have a higher background count which fades. I'd just caution against huge spikes of background count, battles should not be routinely causing Rating 4, 5, or 6 background counts, even in the short term. These are special cases. Most events generate temporary background count levels of 1 or 2.



Yes. If there were regular memorials or vigils at the site, it's likely to lengthen the duration of the background count and could possibly even raise the background count if the area becomes a symbol for something.

Seems pretty clear to me... But hey, to each his own...

I am wondering [trying to get sort of back on topic] Game Mechanicaly Speaking; How can a Mage or Speitiy take out a MBT that is buttened up?

Hey God, if i take the rules of gravitation into account a bumblebee shouldn't be able to fly. SCNR (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Well... Cast Spell (Power Bolt) with High Force (Say 12)... Beat Object Resistance (5or 6) and then deal damage accordingly (12+ Damage anyone; sure it will be physical damage, but who cares)... Rinse and Repeat... NO Armor, No Body... Just down right Damage...

Say you got a Tank with 30 Body, you have a Damage track of 23... Two successful applications and no more tank...

Fun Times

Even Better (for less Drain) use Wreck Tank... Rinse and Repeat

Ramp shaped barrier. Lift and topple. No need to beat OR.