The OICW type systems are cool (and very SF-like) and the M-1060 thermobaric grenade is also interesting.

before you read my post further- a disclaimer: i read only the first ten posts or so and immediately went to add reply so if im rehashing something, i apologize. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

this is meant to give a point of view from current technology and merely a basis for SR tech.
ive fired hundreds of rounds of various types of grenades through the M203 40mm under-barrel grenade launcher. as far as the explosive ones are concerned (since thats where the post originated from) the arming distance of an HEDP (high explosive dual purpose) is about 14-38 meters and the effective casualty radius is 5 meters. combat minimum safe distance is roughly 16-18 meters. if fired within the arming range it will most certainly bounce, though the angle it bounces at is usually not very acute. if fired at a target within the arming distance it will still do mass amounts of impact damage but if the grenade doesnt detonate then you have an issue of unexploded ordanace laying around (or possibly lodged in a troll carcass). the felt recoil is much like that of a 12 gauge shotgun and, as mentioned above, is subsonic with a maximum range of about 400 meters. since the M203 is a breech-loaded pump-action weapon, recoil on follow up shots is not a factor, as each round must be ejected before a new one can be inserted. this may not be the case in SR GL's if they have a box-magazine semi-auto configuration. reference: army field manual FM 3-22.31 Feb2003

that being said, i would never fire a grenade launcher while i was in a building. aside from the arming distance, the explosion will most certainly cause damage to the building. not enough to be a structural danger, but resulting in secondary projectiles flying about the room in completely unpredictable patterns. wood, glass, plascrete all stuck up in yer spongy fleshy parts. ouch! however, firing outside and into or against the building, certainly. the explosion and fragmentation from the round, plus any secondary projectiles will definitely have the desired effect on my target.

btw, my M4/ M203 is leaning against my bunk right next to me with assorted grenades 3 feet from where i sit right now.

Another reason they may want to look at the scatter charts, extra successes past the 0 scatter point no longer increase the DV. Its a game so you don't want grenades to be insta death to the targets, but with no icrease to DV and huge scatter even if you hit the damage will only be okay, and there is a good chance the damage will flat out suck.

For the most part, You are indeed correct...
Grenade Launchers have some recoil, but not too severe, comparable to a 20 Guage shotgun or so...

As for the Hand-Thrown grenades... I have see individuals throw a grenade and actually have it fall from their hands on the draw to throw... Probably a Glitch/Critical Glitch, sure, but it does happen... generally when the individual throwing the munition is scarred or nervous...

Over all though, firing a grenade from a launcher (the typical M203 underbarrel Grenade launcher) at a target 3-4 meters away (even through a door) is CRAZY in the extreme in RL. That is why you are generally issued hand grenades... they are MUCH more effective and have less drawback as compared to a 40mm launched grenade in this situation.

he, too, is correct. hand-thrown grenades are sometimes subject to the "hand of god" scenario. they bounce on hard surfaces but when thrown into mud or snow they generally stay put. i've also seen people who cant throw a pebble 10 feet try to toss a grenade with hilarious results (well, hilarious to me anyway). i barely got my EIB cuz of grenades. seen people fumble flash-bangs too. when stacked to the side of a door and they tried to toss it around the corner they hit the door jamb (also hilarious results, since i wasnt in the stack)

I had an unfortunate oops involving a hand grenade simulator and a tree branch once....

We had a guy on the range drop a grenade behind him in the pit... all of a sudden you see two individuals jump the wall onto the range as the grenade blows in the pit... as you say... quite hilarious when you are not involved...

I heard/read a story somewhere, wherein a service member found an unexploded 40mm grenade on a firing range, picked it up, and took it home as a souvenir (stupid beyond words).

he kept it in a desk drawer. and after a while, with the drawer being opened/shut and the round handled, the internal mechanism that governs arming (which I am assuming is rotational) clicked, and the thing exploded.


/no idea if it's true. heard it from a dude.

One of the two times I threw a live grenade I noticed how all the pits had the gouges in the concrete on the front, and that was cool. As I walked up to the my pit with my little egg of death in it's fiber I noticed that MY pit had all these gouges inside it. This was not so cool. The NCO saw me looking and said something along the lines of "Yes, that is from someone dropping a grenade. If you drop it just freeze and let me handle it. I may throw it out of the pit or grab you and throw YOU out of the pit."

But I didn't screw it up.

Yep... Happens more often than you would probably like to think...

I have no idea how a 40mm works, but the FA fuzes I'm familiar with requires that the round be spinning like mad to deactivate the part of the fuze's safety that prevents it from functioning near the gun.

i was at a grenade range just prior to this deployment where, like most ranges, there was a very large berm seperating the foxholes from the staging area. the difference here was that the safety sat ontop of the berm, in a lawnchair no less (1st army *rolls eyes). so one of the grenade's fragmentation pattern eventually decides to include this hapless NCO and the r-tard caught some in the arm.

Many lulz. Man, grenade ranges were fun. I rarely got to do "real" Army shit, though (strategic MI).

Stay safe dude, and I'm glad to have you on the boards.

Muspellsheimer... you REALLY need to read the damn book. You make numerous assertions that players normally do things, and then assert outright that grenades aren't contact fused from a GL. All things the BBB contradicts. It's all right there in the combat and equipment sections.

*editted out*

You have singularly constructed one of the worst example cases for changing the scatter rules. As the rules already cover this contingency and scatter never comes into play.


A much better hypothetical example....
Gregor is just a poor street sam trying to make a living in the barrens. Yet the other day, some uppity druggie tried to rob him. The man was obviously suicidal going after an armed target sporting obvious 'ware and he thought nothing of dispatching him to whatever exists of an afterlife. How was he supposed to know he was some bigshots son. Now there's a citymaster on the way, and the star's moving in force as one of his contacts reports to him.


Fortunately, grabbing his gear, he grabs an old LAW from his spares just in case. (p32 arsenal, 12Dam, -6AP, -4/m scatter). He manages to sneak to a good ambush spot on the only good road into cul de sac. He takes carefull aim at the unwitting citymaster, aiming for a weak spot close to the infantry compartment hoping to disable the vehicle and leave the HTR team in no state to fight as he makes his escape. He edges the test just to be safe and scores an astoundingly good 8 hits.

Now the GM consults the new 'improved' rules... and sees *4d6 -1/hit scatter*... he rolls low on the scatter a mere 10 on 4 dice. Gregor watches in shocked amazement as his carefully aimed rocket fired from an optomal anti-tank range on an unaware target (no reaction surprise ambush) barely misses by 2m and does a mere 4P -6AP damage... barely scratching the paint. As the HTR streams out the ramp and the minigun starts to turn in his direction, Gregors mind races quickly past... this really hasn't been his week......

Under the old rules... that would have been a much more usable 2d6 scatter, -1 per meter and net hits left after reducing to 0 would increase damage... So that rocket (16P w/ the called shot for damage) -6 dam... would have a high chance of doing sever damage to the citymaster. The extra damage from net hits I don't care about really... but the important thing is... w/ -4dam per m miss... it takes pretty much a direct hit, and a direct hit is nigh impossible w/ 4d6 scatter on a rocket no less!

Also, anybody else catch that "Evasive Driving" is now considered vehicular full defense (reaction + piloting) Guess that leaves dodge only for riggers controlling their drones on p247. Guess that puts another nail in dodge's coffin.


My issues w/ the new rules.... (I pointed this out before they published the final errata and they took the route of idiocy). They vastly increased scatter w/o thinking about what effect that had on the expensive rockets and missiles. They printed both values in the book... and went w/ the rediculously high ones which make it almost impossible to hit anything w/ a fast damage rollout. And rendered things like the single shot non-airburst LAW pretty much dead letter item useless (too much scatter to ever score a direct hit outside of blind luck).

Now my ideal houserules:
The scatter is flat.. It's ALWAYS the same amount of dice. I believe strongly scatter should be scaled w/ range increment and can be done so simply. I also believe airburst shouldn't replace scatter, but do something simple like halve it before applying hits. (airburst is a smartgun accessory, so AR smartgun overlay on flight arc makes sense it'd give a nice accuracy boost, although on a slow projectile lead times are dicey).

Thrown: 1d3 per range increment, or 1d6 per 2 range increments round up. -1 per hit. (not much change from current except at the longer thrown ranges).

Something like 2d6 per range increment for grenade launchers (min 2d6) w/ -2m scatter per hit. I like the no increase in damage for net hits (it's explosive area of effect... it's not a kinetic impact weapon like a panther cannon).

Rockets/Missiles: I'd go w/ 1d6 scatter per range increment. Again -2m scatter per hit. Rockets and missiles are direct fire weapons and should be a lot easier to AIM IMO (they're also a LOT more expensive... as in min cost of about 750 IIRC for a single shot LAW).

Airburst link: halves rolled scatter before applying net hits rather than outright replacing scatter dice.
Extra net hits don't increase damage as these are AOE

@Falconer

Two friendly suggestions:
1. Relax, bro. It's just a discussion.
2. Read the whole thread before going ballistic*.**


*See what I did there? Heh. I'ma go get a beer to celebrate.
**I suggest this because although yes, the grenade in that case wouldn't have armed, the thread does go on into reasons that the scatter rules aren't working out for a lot of us. Rather than going off half cocked***, you would have been able to contribute the other good information/suggestions you have without resorting to tearing into a fellow SR enthusiast.
***I totally just did it again! Awesome. Beer for sure, now!

Maybe you should read the fucking book as well - the minimum distance for grenade launchers can, & (in my experience) is disabled.

Further, it is only better to toss the grenade in if you have one not loaded in a launcher. Your supposed 'correct technique' is exactly what was being done - including the grenade going down stairs. The scatter could very easily ended the exact same way if it was tossed instead of launched - & would actually almost make sense if it was tossed.

Finally, grenades detonating on impact provides further support that the scatter rules are fucking retarded, not the other way around as you imply. If it is detonating on impact, there should be no scatter whatsoever. Also, I have not yet double-checked, but I am fairly certain there is at least one section saying grenade launchers do not always detonate on impact, but can be timed/remote trigger - if it is not default, it can be modified to do so.

Really... I'm taking admins advice and toning down.

No, it's not the Grenade launcher that's modded. The MINIGRENADE's (individually) can have their safeties disabled... and I for one never would. No one I know would or ever has, as you're too close and are caught in the blast. Or at best, they'd only mod a few grenades, and you'll probably only load them in some cases (this isn't a mod to the launcher, it's a mod to the individual minigrenades)... and fooling with that is just asking for a glitch if you do it to all your rounds.

Also, in the equipment section, thrown grenades can also be contact fused w/ a motion sensor. So no you don't need to use the round in the GL... the point of a GL is to lob a grenade a long distance w/ some accuracy beyond arms throw length. (something the rules fail at). Give the range and the circumstances a contact fused.

"Grenades are small, self-contained explosive packages. They may come
with a built-in timer to detonate after a pre-set amount of time (usually
5 seconds), a motion-sensor set to detonate on impact, or a wireless
link set to detonate upon remote command. Damage from grenades is
resisted with Impact armor."

So pick the fuse type when you buy it, just like when you buy caseless or cased ammo for your weapons.

Why... you're only 3m away... meaning you also get hit w/ the damage. 2 hits is not a direct hit. As the round scatters before you can even declare it a direct hit (I agree w/ this in the rules). It's not a direct hit unless you get the scatter to 0 w/ successes. In fact w/ 3d6 scatter it can never be a direct hit, the best you can hope for is 1m accuracy. I repeat you used the wrong weapon in the wrong circumstance... I think there's nothing wrong w/ the rules bouncing the nade back in your face for using the wrong weapon in the wrong situation. In fact, I encourage it.

Also... how does it help to ready an action to close the door after the grenade is fired if it is contact fused? It seems irrelevant to the question at hand. The contact fuse explodes when fired, then the action to close the door takes place.

Hmm, I'm beginning to see what the intent is, I think.

I think the intent is that they wanted to model that placing grenades isn't as easy/exact as placing a bullet (which I don't agree with, but hey). The problem arises in their description and method rather than execution.

I think that's a big issue, here. The rules are trying to model that the grenade is landing and going off a bit off target, not eventually ending up a bit off target before going off. Don't know why that didn't dawn on me sooner.

I still don't like the rules that much, because the required level of success to accomplish what you're trying to is still too high IMO, but the fact that they aren't written worth a darn doesn't help by any means. All grenades "do not 'scatter' to some degree," as we've said several times. They hit and go boom.

Yup, they're still very, very silly.

edit: the beer was tasty.

And that's why the scatter rules are pant on the head retarded.
4 nethits is normally considered critical succes but with rockets your round can still end up 20m from you intended target, i would exactly call that a criticall succes.
On avarage you need 14 nethits to actually hit what you targeted with rockets, thats 3,5 times the needed successis for critical succes. Can you honestly say that that's resonable and the rules are good.

Hear, hear! Rockets and missiles are far more pantstarded than grenades, which are pantstarded to begin with.

I'm torn between getting another beer and going to bed. It's pretty late/early here.

Sigh. One more week of classes, then finals, then relaxing for a bit.

edit: Tool's Faaip de Oiad is totally bad ass.

Grenades (even those from a launcher) are not required to be contact detonated. If they are, they show the pure stupidity of the scatter rules. If they are not, we have other situations, as the one I described, & others in this thread, to do so.


For now, let us assume a hand-tossed grenade. How the fuck do you explain it traveling 6m behind you, up hill, due to scatter, when you roll it forward downhill?

How do you explain a rocket detonating 10m behind you due to scatter, when you scored multiple Hits aiming for something in front of you?

Grenade launchers are slightly more believable than the rockets in the same circumstance. The scatter rules as written, in far to many circumstances (including the one I described) are simply not possible.

The few times "dropped the grenade" or similar can be used to describe it are associated with a [Critical] Glitch, not multiple successes - at which point the scatter does not matter to begin with.

So, again, care to try to explain (with even remotely common sense) how a grenade, launched at a downwards angle with multiple Net Hits, can bounce back up the stairs ~3m (~9ft) to the attacker - without a Glitch being involved?

Nope, the options for a launched grenade are impact (contact) and airburst link. We've established that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I suppose you could make an armorer test to make a fused (aka timed) minigrenade (gah that term is silly), but that'd be non-standard.

But look for a second at what Falconer was saying and what I posted just after: apparently the scatter isn't "scatter", it's "inaccuracy".



Neh?

Still retarded when you get down to it, but less retarded than bouncing impact-detonated grenades.

You actually made me pull out the books - apparently I had misremembered/misread - I could have sworn minigrenades had the same detonation options as standard grenades; eh, whatever. Can still be modified for it - just no specific rules for doing so, thus falls under the general usage of Armorer.

Let me see...

Even if Falconer was correct about that, it does not reduce the stupidity at all - merely changes it from contact to timed detonation grenades (do you really expect a grenade not going off on impact will not bounce at all?).

I saw that happen once, with a grenade simulator. But it was thrown. I hit a branch as I threw it, it bounced right back and went off way too close. But that would be a glitch, not normal scatter.

The rules seem kind of crazy.

To recap my current problem w/ the errataed rules changes

It takes a ludicrous amount of hits to bring rockets and missiles onto target.
Why? They only get 1m closer to target for each hit.

In fact, airburst is almost mandatory for rockets and missiles just to halve the scatter dice, and you're not going to have it on a common cheap one shot anti-vehicle weapon like a LAW. (I think those are about the most common type of rockets I've seen commonly used).

In fact, you're in some ways better not taking airburst. As only removing one die of scatter, changes your 'closure rate' from 2m per hit, to 1m per hit on GLs. But it's for all purposes mandatory for rockets/missiles now.


My problem w/ the way the rules are handled pre and post errata.
Scatter is a flat inaccuracy value at all ranges. It makes no sense that trying to hit something close in (but farther than min range) should be just as bad as trying to hit something at the extreme edge of your range. Yeah I could understand if you pointed artillery tubes straight up than ran for the bunkers... but these weapons in this case are almost pointed directly at the target for a flat short trajectory.

This is why you end up w/ the silliness of things ending up in really silly spots at times. You roll scatter as if the target was at medium/long range even though you're using it at practically point blank. That is the heart of the scatter problem in a nutshell.

There is no factor for time of flight... a grenade on a high ballistic arc can easily take 3-6 seconds (1-2 combat turns) to reach it's point of impact at it's longer ranges. This is probably too much complexity and is at best an optional rule.



Easy way to fix:
Start w/ a single die of scatter, and then add another one for each range category.
Reflect the users accuracy w/ the weapon by adjusting the effect of hits on bringing it closer.
IE: GL's are more inaccurate than missiles/rockets... so they only get -2m/hit. While rockets get a -3m/hit.
Make airburst usefull by giving it a flat effect rather than completely replacing the existing scatter dice (halve inaccuracy before applying net hits for example).