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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 7 2009, 03:57 AM
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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ May 6 2009, 04:55 PM) *
This is defiantly not recoilless.



And is entirely crazy in my opinion...
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Angry Ork
post May 7 2009, 04:15 AM
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It looks like someone built the nuke slingshot from fallout 3
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Falconer
post May 9 2009, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 5 2009, 03:06 PM) *
Still no Burst/FA Rocket/Missle-Luncher?


Actually, you can pull off a convincing robotech/macross impression w/ the mini-drone launch rack (the one which holds 10 mini, or 20 microdrones) and launch them all at once. They do have those suicide drones in the heimdall missiles (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . And nothing stopping you from arming your little bugswarm w/ a grenades each.


Overall... most of the weapons I'm seeing listed only fire at SA or SS though. And I'd say most of them don't qualify for the modification to allow them to go full auto as they have unique loading/firing mechanisms. (lasers in particular)

Quite frankly... I'm rather disappointed that the rules make both the power packs themselves a low avail 12+ illegal item. After the gun itself is already an 18F for the lasers... I was hoping to try one out sometimes as a primary out of chargen... but a restricted gear quality for each power pack and the gun... ouch. You'd think there'd be legitimate uses for very high power compact power supplies at worst making them an 'R' item.
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Method
post May 9 2009, 03:00 PM
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RE: High Impulse Weapon: Is it just me or is that thing totally unwieldy? It doesn't look like it was designed for man-portable operation.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 9 2009, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Method @ May 9 2009, 09:00 AM) *
RE: High Impulse Weapon: Is it just me or is that thing totally unwieldy? It doesn't look like it was designed for man-portable operation.



It looked REAL unwieldy to me...
I am pretty sure that I would not want to use it, unless it provided SIGNIFICANTLY more options than are already available with modern military weapons...
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AllTheNothing
post May 9 2009, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ May 9 2009, 04:02 PM) *
Quite frankly... I'm rather disappointed that the rules make both the power packs themselves a low avail 12+ illegal item. After the gun itself is already an 18F for the lasers... I was hoping to try one out sometimes as a primary out of chargen... but a restricted gear quality for each power pack and the gun... ouch. You'd think there'd be legitimate uses for very high power compact power supplies at worst making them an 'R' item.

Another ineresting aspect is that the Ares Screech Sonic Rifle has an aviability of 16 (no 'R', no 'F', just 16) but the powerclips that it uses have one of 14F; everyone can buy it but nobody can buy the ammunitions to use it.
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Dakka Dakka
post May 10 2009, 05:11 PM
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Looks like those things slipped through the cracks.
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Kerenshara
post May 12 2009, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 5 2009, 01:18 PM) *
There are several weapons that IRL have negligible recoil, like rocket launchers, flamethorwers and lasers. Do they suffer normal recoil modifiers or is ther a differing rule I'm not aware of?

Have you ever FIRED a "rocket launcher"? Or a flamethrower, for that matter? Neither is trully recoilless in the sense that there is no back-pressure or deviation of the barrel in firing. Basic physics: for every action there must be an equal and oposite reaction. If you use compressed gas to push liquid in one direction, the aparatus itself will receive push back. The effective amount is small, relatively speaking, but not unimportant. But since it's an area effect weapon firing a continuous stream, it's largely irrelevant in use. Now, a rocket launcher has a significant "kick" on firing, largely due to shifts in center of mass as the projectile moves and friction between the departing round and the tube itself; The actual ejection motor (be it the primary or simply a separation charge) will also have some minor effect on the launcher. In game terms, since the fastest rocket launcher I have seen is Single Shot (SS), it's meaningless in rules terms. But if you're planning an ambush, remember that the back blast from most "recoilless" weapons in an enclosed space (say, an apartment on the third floor) will kill the operator instantly. In the late 1970s and early 1980's, the US Army and Marine Corps had a wire-guided man-portable anti-tank weapon, the M-47 Dragon, whose "kick" was so severe, many soldiers accidentally crashed their missiles in training when their sights wound up pointed at the ground immediately upon launch. They eventually resorted to a very odd looking and uncomfortable braced firing posture which negated this tendancy sufficiently for them to regain control and keep the missile on target.

(OK, I will give you that Lasers are legitimately recoilless. IS there a non-vehicular laser that has a Semi Automatic ROF?)
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Digital Heroin
post May 12 2009, 10:41 PM
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For one of my submissions for the open call for Missions adventures I cooked up a BF laser prototype (the Ares Firestorm). It was all kinds of nasty in the right hands, but it was biometrically locked. I statted out and ran the numbers on a FA laser, and slowly backed away.

Edited to reflect the BF natrure of the beast, not the SA.
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Dakka Dakka
post May 12 2009, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 13 2009, 12:24 AM) *
(OK, I will give you that Lasers are legitimately recoilless. IS there a non-vehicular laser that has a Semi Automatic ROF?)
Actually all man portable Lasers in the Arsenal are Semi Automatic. BTW there also is a rocket laucher firing SA in the BBB.
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Kerenshara
post May 13 2009, 12:20 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 12 2009, 05:42 PM) *
Actually all man portable Lasers in the Arsenal are Semi Automatic. BTW there also is a rocket laucher firing SA in the BBB.

I don't want to sound ignorant but... BBB??
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Heath Robinson
post May 13 2009, 12:31 AM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 13 2009, 01:20 AM) *
I don't want to sound ignorant but... BBB??

Big Base Book, or Big Black Book. The Corebook of SR4.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 13 2009, 12:53 AM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 12 2009, 03:24 PM) *
Have you ever FIRED a "rocket launcher"? Or a flamethrower, for that matter? Neither is trully recoilless in the sense that there is no back-pressure or deviation of the barrel in firing. Basic physics: for every action there must be an equal and oposite reaction. If you use compressed gas to push liquid in one direction, the aparatus itself will receive push back. The effective amount is small, relatively speaking, but not unimportant. But since it's an area effect weapon firing a continuous stream, it's largely irrelevant in use. Now, a rocket launcher has a significant "kick" on firing, largely due to shifts in center of mass as the projectile moves and friction between the departing round and the tube itself; The actual ejection motor (be it the primary or simply a separation charge) will also have some minor effect on the launcher. In game terms, since the fastest rocket launcher I have seen is Single Shot (SS), it's meaningless in rules terms. But if you're planning an ambush, remember that the back blast from most "recoilless" weapons in an enclosed space (say, an apartment on the third floor) will kill the operator instantly. In the late 1970s and early 1980's, the US Army and Marine Corps had a wire-guided man-portable anti-tank weapon, the M-47 Dragon, whose "kick" was so severe, many soldiers accidentally crashed their missiles in training when their sights wound up pointed at the ground immediately upon launch. They eventually resorted to a very odd looking and uncomfortable braced firing posture which negated this tendancy sufficiently for them to regain control and keep the missile on target.

(OK, I will give you that Lasers are legitimately recoilless. IS there a non-vehicular laser that has a Semi Automatic ROF?)


The Dragon still exists, as far as I remember... Beast of a Missile... not as good as the TOW, but still...
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Draco18s
post May 13 2009, 04:55 AM
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Rockets are "truely" recoil-less because the push-back from firing isn't directed at the tube from which it's fired. That is, there's no confined space that the gasses push on, they simply fall out the back end.
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Kerenshara
post May 13 2009, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 12 2009, 11:55 PM) *
Rockets are "truely" recoil-less because the push-back from firing isn't directed at the tube from which it's fired. That is, there's no confined space that the gasses push on, they simply fall out the back end.

Textbook, you're right. But the thread was asking about recoil modifiers, and game mechanics are essentially asking "How much deviation of the barrel occurs as a result of firing which would lead increased circular error probable with subsequent rounds in short order?" So if the thing kicks like a mule from the firer's perspective, text book is pointless in this context. Look at the MLRS artillery system, based on the M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle and weighing in at 27.5 short tonnes. If fires rockets from open tubes, but an MLRS crewmember will still tell you it's a dramatic experience when those rockets leave. So while it is true there is none of the complex recoil absorbing aparatus found on conventional artillery, if you fired the thing in space, it would still send you tumbling. Actual zero-net-vector weapons (again, lasers are this by definition) are possible, and while most are BASED on rocket technology or some variation thereupon, they have to be carefully engineered to eliminate ANY transference of force to the weapon itself. I still need to look up the SA rocket launcher from the BBB and check, but if you were attempting unguided shots with the thing, I know I would impose a penalty with the thing. Not a big one, mind you, but enough to honor the dificulty of firing off two rockets in three seconds. Since guided weapons use diferent mechanics and don't care about initial aim point, then it's irrelevant.
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TBRMInsanity
post May 13 2009, 02:25 PM
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I've fired a single shot rocket launcher before and it is sorta recoilless (it rumbles around but there is not discernible forward or backward kick). My question would be how do you have a SA rocket launcher in such a way you can load it quickly enough to be SA and still keep the rockets from igniting each other?

BTY I can't find a SA man portable rocket or missle launcher in the BBB. Can you reference a page number please.
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Dakka Dakka
post May 13 2009, 02:29 PM
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It's the Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL on p. 319/320 of SR4A or p. 310 of SR4.
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Kerenshara
post May 13 2009, 02:35 PM
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The Soviets developed a light weight auto-mortar in the mid-twentieth century. It was clip loaded and fired very fast. But an even simpler sollution would be a revolver magazine. We've seen that on tanks for years, and without the full recoil forces associated with a high-pressure tank gun, you could spin a new round into position much faster. Fast enough that you could achieve an aimed shot every second and a half to get to SA rate of fire, per RAW. I still say there would be enough recoil in such a system to require a small recoil modifier.
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TBRMInsanity
post May 13 2009, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 13 2009, 08:35 AM) *
The Soviets developed a light weight auto-mortar in the mid-twentieth century. It was clip loaded and fired very fast. But an even simpler sollution would be a revolver magazine. We've seen that on tanks for years, and without the full recoil forces associated with a high-pressure tank gun, you could spin a new round into position much faster. Fast enough that you could achieve an aimed shot every second and a half to get to SA rate of fire, per RAW. I still say there would be enough recoil in such a system to require a small recoil modifier.


I agree with you totally. There should be some small recoil modifier.

BTW can you stop using a green colour on your posts. It give me a headache.
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Kerenshara
post May 13 2009, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ May 13 2009, 11:49 AM) *
I agree with you totally. There should be some small recoil modifier.

BTW can you stop using a green colour on your posts. It give me a headache.

Well, I went and played with it and settles on a slightly different shade. Hope this works better. (I am editing all my old posts for consistency and ... to be polite)
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Draco18s
post May 14 2009, 12:39 AM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 13 2009, 04:55 PM) *
Well, I went and played with it and settles on a slightly different shade. Hope this works better. (I am editing all my old posts for consistency and ... to be polite)


I'm curious as to why people think that they need to mess with the font style for every post.
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