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> Wires, Wires, everywhere, and not a port to hack., Sometimes, there's no school like the old school.
Draco18s
post May 10 2009, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (Biokinetica @ May 9 2009, 11:12 PM) *
On the points concerning signal, does a rating of 0 really matter if your own is say, 3? If you're a block away in the van, then shouldn't your own 400 meter reach be enough?


Yes, actually.
Though I don't know what RAW says, but I'm betting that it's the weaker of the two. That's the way it works in real life!
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Falconer
post May 10 2009, 03:26 AM
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On signal... no

Think of it this way... you're putting out enough wattage to go 400m. But the other guy isn't.

Or a more extreme example... you can pickup the high power radio emissions from a satellite (say direcTV). But the satellite is going to have a VERY hard time picking up your weakass signal against the background noise, unless you can put some juice behind it. (higher signal rating... satellite uplinks don't come cheap).

Or another take... there's a signal rating 2 bug, in the presence of a rating 2 jammer. Your commlink is rating 3 and out of range of the jammer. The bug is still jammed and out of range w/ an effective signal of 0 despite your higher signal rating on the other side.
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Draco18s
post May 10 2009, 03:30 AM
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Receiving data is one thing (DirectTV), it's the sending that's the problem, and you need both to hack.
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Vermithrax
post May 10 2009, 03:46 AM
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Hacking cyber need not be about fine control.
A hacker could simply delete the firmware that interprets your nerv impulses to movement. Result: dead limb.
Hacking cybereyes to shut the pupil. Blindness modifiers arent fun.
The fun you can have reversing the friend/foe designation of someones smartlink is not to be missed.
Any of these and more are possible if your foes are stupid enough to leave wireless active on cyber.

Theres a good reason for the mention of turning wireless off on cyber in the main book.
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hobgoblin
post May 10 2009, 03:50 AM
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On topic of signal range, cracking the firewall takes two way com, and therefor needs to be within range of the lowest signal rating, but spoof do not...
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kigmatzomat
post May 10 2009, 04:19 AM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 9 2009, 04:29 PM) *
Today's cars have incredibly complicated computers inside them.

Can YOU start up a diagnostics run on one?
No.


Yes. At least I could in 1996. Nothing like performance tuning a Grand National while doing 75 on the interstate. That supercharger was sweeeet once we got the fuel air mix right. You could control the throttle through the software via the cruise
control interface.

QUOTE
Why?


Because I had a 486 laptop. My friend supplied the GN. and ordered the parallel port adapter cable and the software from an auto supply company. His mom worked at the parts company. Yay employee discount.

QUOTE
Because all of the software and equipment necessary to get it to do that is a giant honking box sitting in the mechanic's garage.


Yeah, that's just a pc in a big metal box. The box is big so the pc can stay cool and metal to protect it from mechanics, tools and cars.
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Biokinetica
post May 10 2009, 04:31 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 9 2009, 11:50 PM) *
On topic of signal range, cracking the firewall takes two way com, and therefor needs to be within range of the lowest signal rating, but spoof do not...
This is what I was thinking, but I just remembered that spoofing an order first requires a matrix perception test, which in theory should still be two-way. Let's just say you where able to get close enough to this guy at the dinner table to get his access ID; after the date, this guy's your bitch, right?
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hobgoblin
post May 10 2009, 05:42 AM
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QUOTE (Biokinetica @ May 10 2009, 06:31 AM) *
This is what I was thinking, but I just remembered that spoofing an order first requires a matrix perception test, which in theory should still be two-way. Let's just say you where able to get close enough to this guy at the dinner table to get his access ID; after the date, this guy's your bitch, right?

Indeed, if you have the accessid of anyone able to send commands to the targeted node (rember, a node is a computer, from the rfid in your boxers to the renraku mainframe) if said accessid have the correct rights.

Think is tho, i'm not sure if the persona, who's accessid your spoofing, needs to active on the target node at the time, of if he just needs to be listed in the nodes subscription list. I cant really say the rules are clear on that topic.

Ugh, never mind. You cant spoof a generic node. Only agents, drones (a agent in a can, more or less) and sprites can be spoofed. Been a while since i read the spoof description it seems.

So if you want to play around with mr chromes internals, you have to get familiar with his firewall(s)...
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Psikerlord
post May 10 2009, 06:51 AM
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Although players will no doubt do much to protect their cyberware, if NPCs get their ware hacked, or the PCs are careless, I think the hacker should be able to go to town on them... as suggested in the possibilities of Vermithrax, or getting cyberarms to punch their owners, etc. I imagine this sort of techno shananigans is one of the things many folks play hackers for.
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Floyd
post May 10 2009, 08:03 AM
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On the question of low signal verses high signal, your signal 3 com can crack his firewall, but his signal 0 cyberarm can't send back the results.

Regardless of what kind of interface a cyber-part has, the action it takes is controled by information. A DNI input still has to be translated in to language the device understands. A hack later and you can disrupt the feed from their nerves and use your Command program to flash gang signs, bouncing the return signal off their own comm node.
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MKX
post May 10 2009, 09:22 AM
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Fibre optic isn't that great for short haul applications, by the time you set up the attenuation and all the buggering around with that, its generally easier to use a bit of old fashioned copper. Plus, it doesn't like bending much, that causes all kinds of problems with glass fibre, not the least of which is breakage, but simply because the signal will distort, they're making it better over time but its best left in a static position.
So yes, if you're making a secure network in a building, its much better to have everything cabled up to a old turtle computer that controls it all with no RF gear at all.
Course, to do that retroactively it is quite costly having to re-run everything every time there is a firmware upgrade to your drones, sensors and electric fence!
(remember- everything is by the lowest bidder)

RF you can do a fair bit with in terms of messing with it, its why we have fairly firm laws on its deployment to avoid jamming each other, aside from that the encryption takes care of anything else when your device speaks to whatever is on the other end- that tends to be fairly robust though when we're talking mobile networks. Its also fairly easy to triangulate a comms signal, especially a strong signal so your 'hacker' or rigger if you will has a problem with being overwhelmed then they just need to take a couple readings of the source to figure out where it is... then send in your problem solver with a hammer to go fix it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(I'm a network engineer by trade for both a telco and an ISP using both RF and fibre, plus a couple of large private WAN's)
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DWC
post May 10 2009, 12:21 PM
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Deteled, because several others said it more clearly than I did.
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Writer
post May 10 2009, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 9 2009, 11:02 PM) *
Hmm, i just had the mental image of the hacker doing a jedi handwave followed by the sound of the magazined of the guards guns hitting the floor.


Yeah, this mental image totally rocks.
I might have to throw this into a story.
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KarmaInferno
post May 10 2009, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 9 2009, 09:13 PM) *
Bingo.

Disabling wireless capability even temporarily is going to be a big pain in the ass - for starters, you'll have bits of cable looped around your body, and many things suddenly become very inconvenient. You might still be able to connect to smartguns via a skinlink, but you'd have to have all your gear connected to you at all times by a conductive material. Group communication would be severely limited, and fuggedabout the matrix.


I have a merc character that has all of his gear non-wireless. No wireless at all, not just turning it off. It's a pain, yes, but only initially during equipment acquisition.

Day to day, he has no more difficulty than anyone else, really. The cables are all pre-wired into his vest or in his cyberlimbs, nothing dangling out.

There's not a whole lot of gear that needs to be networked anyhow. Comms and a small computer are in his earpiece (and not connected to anything else). He has a pair of data glasses if he needs to see some graphical data. His cyberguns he controls with old fashioned palm induction pads. His cyberware is all internally connected. What else does he need networked?


-karma
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Chrysalis
post May 10 2009, 03:40 PM
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How about old tech. As in all the cyberware is before the wireless Matrix?
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SpasticTeapot
post May 10 2009, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 9 2009, 05:05 PM) *
Admittedly it's not like you can do anything damaging to the car while it's moving.


FUBAR the fuel-air map - the engine stalls, the car loses brakes, and the occupants are in lots and lots of trouble.

QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 9 2009, 04:29 PM) *
Because all of the software and equipment necessary to get it to do that is a giant honking box sitting in the mechanic's garage.


Last I checked, all you needed was an EEPROM burner and a laptop. And I'm not even sure you need the EEPROM burner anymore.

QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 10 2009, 10:40 AM) *
How about old tech. As in all the cyberware is before the wireless Matrix?


Old cyberware had a fiber-optic jack. New cyberware has wireless so you can download firmware updates and upload diagnostic information without having to muck around with cables.
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Stahlseele
post May 10 2009, 05:03 PM
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Also, because SOTA Rules suck.
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Draco18s
post May 10 2009, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 10 2009, 01:02 PM) *
FUBAR the fuel-air map - the engine stalls, the car loses brakes, and the occupants are in lots and lots of trouble.


Nono. See you need to be OUTSIDE the car at the time.

Otherwise it's like a cybersam hacking his own limbs to fuck with himself.
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Chrysalis
post May 10 2009, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 10 2009, 08:53 PM) *
Nono. See you need to be OUTSIDE the car at the time.

Otherwise it's like a cybersam hacking his own limbs to fuck with himself.


My grandfather was a submariner (1942-1949 Pacific Theatre). What you do is grow your finger nails long on your left hand, paint them red and lie on the arm until it goes numb. Then you reach around the curtain to give yourself a good wank. I guess this would be the 2072 version.
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Draco18s
post May 10 2009, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 10 2009, 02:13 PM) *
My grandfather was a submariner (1942-1949 Pacific Theatre). What you do is grow your finger nails long on your left hand, paint them red and lie on the arm until it goes numb. Then you reach around the curtain to give yourself a good wank. I guess this would be the 2072 version.


That's...so wrong?
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Writer
post May 10 2009, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 10 2009, 02:13 PM)
My grandfather was a submariner (1942-1949 Pacific Theatre). What you do is grow your finger nails long on your left hand, paint them red and lie on the arm until it goes numb. Then you reach around the curtain to give yourself a good wank. I guess this would be the 2072 version.


QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 10 2009, 02:33 PM) *
That's...so wrong?


Yeah, no kidding. I mean, I would feel so cheap with those fingernails red. I might go more with a nice pretty pink.
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kzt
post May 10 2009, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (MKX @ May 10 2009, 03:22 AM) *
Fibre optic isn't that great for short haul applications, by the time you set up the attenuation and all the buggering around with that, its generally easier to use a bit of old fashioned copper. Plus, it doesn't like bending much, that causes all kinds of problems with glass fibre, not the least of which is breakage, but simply because the signal will distort, they're making it better over time but its best left in a static position.

Not exactly. For example, you can get fiber optics (SM/MM) in elevator traveling cables, but just try to get Cat 5e in a traveling cable. Fiber optics doesn't have any real issues with continually moving, thin copper wire does. Neither likes sharp 90 degree bends very much.
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Shadowfox
post May 11 2009, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 9 2009, 11:17 AM) *
You know. One of these days players will learn that if you hack cyberware all you get is the diagnostics output. You can't make people punch themselves in the face with their own cyberarm. It does not work that way. Why else is a cyberarm connected to your NERVOUS SYSTEM?

For guns you could get (and maybe spoof it though I doubt it*) the smartlink system. Fire it if they have a triggerless gun (most people don't). But not aim it.

*Smartlink as I understand it requires a camera on or in the gun. Spoofing the smartlink system would require providing near-correct but wrong video feed.



Yes but to be honest, I've houseruled it in game that all cyberware can be hacked in that manner, that even if it doesn't have wireless, it's slaved to your commlink and can be hacked through there.

Basically, I told my players that RAW it was a lot harder to do that, but that I could make it easier, BUT that it would have to be the same for them, and they still wanted to take the risk.


Hey, for me, it was an easy way to get them to run out of a hacker bar when they started trouble and then there guns started going off in there pockets.
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Draco18s
post May 11 2009, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (Shadowfox @ May 11 2009, 11:06 AM) *
Hey, for me, it was an easy way to get them to run out of a hacker bar when they started trouble and then there guns started going off in there pockets.


If it's even remotely possible to cause someone else's gun to go off, I don't see how SR has managed to maintain any level of civilization at all.

Unless there are far fewer dickwads in SR than there are in real life...

(Imagine the number of internet trolls that would cream their pants at the ability to hack into some dude's gun from half a mile away and cause him to shoot up a bar).
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Vermithrax
post May 13 2009, 10:00 AM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 11 2009, 11:18 AM) *
If it's even remotely possible to cause someone else's gun to go off, I don't see how SR has managed to maintain any level of civilization at all.

Unless there are far fewer dickwads in SR than there are in real life...

(Imagine the number of internet trolls that would cream their pants at the ability to hack into some dude's gun from half a mile away and cause him to shoot up a bar).


As a GM, I would have to carefully adjudicate whether it is possible to set off the gun remotely.
If the gun was electronically fired (such as the Fubuki, or a gun was modded for it) and had its wireless on then it's a definite "yes".
If the gun has a Smartgun System and its wireless was on then "yes" (p311-312 under smartgun system "It allows a smartlinked character to mentally switch between gun modes, eject clips, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger.")

Sometimes, I think the only reason wireless became so ubiquitous in SR4 is to make hackers funner/more powerful.
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