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> Balkanization and military stores, So what happened to all those WMDs?
Kerenshara
post May 19 2009, 05:43 AM
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QUOTE (MKX @ May 19 2009, 01:31 AM) *
I don't discount the conventional WMD's have some credibility and people will respect them, but there's more than one way to skin a cat as a solution.

Notice I didn't argue with the points about asymetrical warfare and magic and all the other 6th world goodies.

But it doesn't really matter if Kerplackistan only has one nuke: if they have the ability to deliver it to one of your cities and you know you can't stop that delivery method with 100% certainty, it doesn't matter to your dead citizens and their surviving families that you turned all of Kerplackistan into a self-lighting glass-surfaced parking lot exactly twenty two minutes after they vaporized your city. In the Cold War, it was MAD because the threat had to be SO severe, the other fella would never seriously contemplate his first strike: he knew there would be nothing left. But if you are pushing the nutzy leaders of Kerplackistan into a corner they can't get out of and their people will literally hang them if they fail, there's not much stopping them from using that one missile, a final gesture of defiance from their funeral pyre lit by the spark of a splitting atom. MAD assumed rational actors on both sides, and in a multi-polar world, you can't always guarantee that.
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Rusted Scrap Met...
post May 19 2009, 05:45 AM
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QUOTE (MKX @ May 18 2009, 10:31 PM) *
Not really, sure the dictator of your neighbouring satellite state of Kebabistan has his very own nuclear device or ten.
If you're a large country, you've got ten times the NBC capability, troops, resources and a handful of tricks up your sleeve that will leave Kebabistan going back to the iron age overnight and reading books by candle light. Sure they can reach out and touch you, do some damage, but essentially that just gives the bigger dog on the block just cause to WTF stomp them into the dirt completely.
Heck, the annoying individual might just wake up one morning in his bunker to find out that he's got massive amounts of ritual sorcery aimed at his arse and soon to be very melted.

I don't discount the conventional WMD's have some credibility and people will respect them, but there's more than one way to skin a cat as a solution.

Let's take a look at that...

OK Mr. Dicktater has his old refit Soviet Disunion ICBM system, and a knockoff old Atlas bunker complex. Now, this is cheap and easy to build in 2050+. Hey, give me access to people and some money, and I could build you one of those bunker systems, so it isn't as hard as people think.

So, of course, the first thing on his mind is going to be securing it via Astral penetration.

In Shadowtech and a few others, they mention a strain of harmless bacteria that is magically active, but doesn't really do anything but float around in the air and breed. That means that the whole interior of said bunker is nothing but one big magical glow. Even providing you could find the thing under 50 feet of concrete covered by dirt and trees with dispersed ventilation systems and all of that, probably run on canned air with scrubbers, and all that fun stuff.

Mr. Dicktater didn't get where he did by not knowing about Astral security and protecting from ritual sorcery. It can't be as easy as making a Force 6 attack, or every single politician would be dead. It's a dream come true that people wouldn't be able to pass up. So taking him out without a "Kill me, and the missile launches Mr. Bond" option going off is going to be difficult at best, meaning a multi-pronged attack, both on the leader, and on ALL facilities. And those attacks would have to be lightning fast, and ALL succeed, or launches go. Even if it's going to hit neighboring Drekistan, it'll cause everyone to go crazy.

So what if you have 10X the capability as he does. If he can reach out and touch even ONE of your allies, then you have a problem.

But it isn't just Mr. Dicktater, it's the head of Fuchi, the head of Aztechnology. Everyone who is everyone has NBC-R capability.

If you don't, then that means they can tell you what to do.

And nobody wants to be on that end.
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Kerenshara
post May 19 2009, 05:52 AM
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QUOTE (Rusted Scrap Metal @ May 19 2009, 01:34 AM) *
In a world where the gray/black market can let you get ahold of military grade vehicles and AVM's and AAM systems, with excellent ranges, you could build the delivery vehicle in a SR Rigger's garage.

Making one or a series of weapons at this scale IS doable, but a single vegicle-scale weapon, or even a six-pack of them, is going to have a fairly limited dispersal patern in relation to one of the mega-plexes of the 6th world. As a weapon of terror or what-have-you, they are plausible and effective. But getting enough resources for a rogue group to succesfully wipe out a city, like you could with one high-yield nuke, seems somewhat less plausible.
Arguing about the resources of the Megas themselves is pointless: they manufacture the hardware they sell to the governments, and if you think they didn't have a little "manufacturing over-run", think again. A flight of FederatedBoeing Eagle-Cs (or the hinted at, even spiffier toys excluded from Arsenal) armed with higher yeild chemical "bombs" could easily threaten an entire 'plex. I think, given the phrasing of the OP, we're really talking about shadow-groups of one stripe or another as the theoretical users, not organizations with on-the-book assets and resources that can handle the job. Agreed?
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kzt
post May 19 2009, 05:59 AM
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QUOTE (Rusted Scrap Metal @ May 18 2009, 11:34 PM) *
High security bio-labs would have not only "thermal incineration" options for the inside, but would also have...

You know what... nevermind.

I'm sorry, discussing the security measures of Wildfire Laboratories on this forum is not permitted.
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Rusted Scrap Met...
post May 19 2009, 06:19 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ May 18 2009, 09:59 PM) *
I'm sorry, discussing the security measures of Wildfire Laboratories on this forum is not permitted.

>>>>>[Extract needed ASAP. High End Runners only need apply. LTG: 555-35634]<<<<
--Rusted Scrap Metal <23:18:44/17-5-52>
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post May 19 2009, 06:30 AM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 18 2009, 09:52 PM) *
Making one or a series of weapons at this scale IS doable, but a single vegicle-scale weapon, or even a six-pack of them, is going to have a fairly limited dispersal patern in relation to one of the mega-plexes of the 6th world. As a weapon of terror or what-have-you, they are plausible and effective. But getting enough resources for a rogue group to succesfully wipe out a city, like you could with one high-yield nuke, seems somewhat less plausible.

I wouldn't bet on that. If they have a professional (And make no mistake, guys with this kind of knowledge are tracked by most intelligence agencies even if they are fat, old, and sitting on the couch watching Spongebob) the guy could not only design and manufacture the chemical weapon with stuff easy to find through a fixer, much less the kind of stuff you find floating around in SR. Then, he's going to know how to deliver it. It would require some modification of the warhead, but the dissemination attack vehicle wouldn't be that difficult. Then combine the state of the art electronics in SR, when weighed against modern smart weapons, and you could do a serious attack on a megaplex through aerial attack vectors. This would also have to include "multi-stage" attacks on megacorp buildings, most of which would have the multiple types of protection because Shadowrun is the product of late 80's Cold War Paranioa, and the reason why it was so much fun, is that EVERYONE was paranoid in that game. Those buildings would spend more on air scrubbers, positive pressure systems, internal localized circuit atmospheric systems for high priority areas, and all of that. This would require multiple attacks on the buildings.

We're talking a group.

If you're going to throw the PC's against something planning something like this, you need to think long and hard.

Either they're going to do a sarin gas attack on the subway, or they're a professional group who is about to cause some serious damage all around.
QUOTE
Arguing about the resources of the Megas themselves is pointless: they manufacture the hardware they sell to the governments, and if you think they didn't have a little "manufacturing over-run", think again. A flight of FederatedBoeing Eagle-Cs (or the hinted at, even spiffier toys excluded from Arsenal) armed with higher yeild chemical "bombs" could easily threaten an entire 'plex. I think, given the phrasing of the OP, we're really talking about shadow-groups of one stripe or another as the theoretical users, not organizations with on-the-book assets and resources that can handle the job. Agreed?

Oh, I agree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I mean, having a serious discussion on putting together a group of Sixth World 2050+ freaks with a specialist on hand would be interesting.

As long as we dance around some things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Kerenshara
post May 19 2009, 07:47 AM
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QUOTE (Rusted Scrap Metal @ May 19 2009, 02:30 AM) *
We're talking a group.

*snip*

Either they're going to do a sarin gas attack on the subway, or they're a professional group who is about to cause some serious damage all around.

Having just been to the movies and seen a certain trailer repeatedly, I guess the obvious response would have to be "CoooooooBRAAAAAAA!"
Wow, I can hear the crickets...

That was my point: to execute that sort simultaneous of multi-point attack against what are by any definition of the word "hardened facilities", with genuine surprise, we're getting out of small para-military units here. And those off-the-shelf missiles you're modifying may be obtainable, but they're kinda big. One off, that's big. Multiples gets a little nutzo. Saturation strikes from a minimum safe distance beyond range of short-range counter-battery fire and rapid-response units would call for either a LOT of medium sized vehicles or a couple mother huge launch platforms. Consider that the Chapparal SAM platform had a quad mount of Sidewinders, one of the LIGHTEST air-to-air weapons with a range of... well, in 2070 with modern propellants at low altitude with a functionally "motionless" starting platform, let's call it 25 km optimistically, and IT was mounted on a fragging M113 chassis. Said missile is only 5"/75mm in diameter and a paltry 21 pounds / 9.5kg of "payload". Now the Maverick AGM weighs in about three and a half times heavier, is designed for low altitude use, has a range of probably close to 40 km with 2070 fuels, is 12"/180mm in diameter carrying a 300 pound/140kg warhead in a late model. But that's a big heavy weapon again, so we're talking singletons dispersend on multiple networked platforms or a couple big mobile batteries. With a chemical agent, be it ever so potent, physics plays no favorites, and "volume" is a major consideration as much as "weight" for achieving a wide saturation patern with lethal concentrations.

Ok, now I'm starting to scare myself because ... oh, hell...

Good night, sleep tight, don't let the caustic blister enhanced nerve agents eat your flesh while your central nervous system decomposes.
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Kerenshara
post May 19 2009, 07:57 AM
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QUOTE (Rusted Scrap Metal @ May 19 2009, 02:19 AM) *
>>>>>[Extract needed ASAP. High End Runners only need apply. LTG: 555-35634]<<<<
--Rusted Scrap Metal <23:18:44/17-5-72>


(Edited to read 2072, I was a toddler in 2052)

>>>>>[Comcode: SCRAMBLED; Trace: FAILED]<<<<<
Decryption sequence: COMPLETE

[RSM, long time. I'm in.
Smash'n'grab, so Crystal will bring her toys...
Unless you want to try quiet like, then I will need more data.
Just gimmie Lat/Long and time.
You know how to reach me.
Kisses.]
--Kerenshara <23:28:03/17-5-72>

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KarmaInferno
post May 19 2009, 08:40 PM
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I am strongly reminded about the movie "Lord of War".

While it had political overtones you may or may not agree with, it did present a good general picture of what happens when a superpower balkanizes and falls into chaos.

The weapons stockpiles mysteriously start to disappear.

YURI: How many Kalashnikovs do you have?

DMITRI: 40,000.

YURI: Is that a "4"? It doesn't look like a "4" to me. It looks more like a "1". 10,000 Kalashnikovs for a battalion. Your
stocks are dangerously depleted, Dmitri. You should order more from the factory.




-karma
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Rusted Scrap Met...
post May 19 2009, 10:04 PM
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Children of the Bloody Path

Shadowland Briefing 2052


A terrorist group that started in South America in the later 2030's, supplied with arms and training by the Soviet Union until that nation's collapse, the Children of the Bloody Path were those who grew up in the war torn lands and grew to an adulthood with a burning hatred of authority and governments. They utilize a cell-like structure, with each leader of a cell belonging to a seperate cell, which leaders in turn belonged to another cell. In the Soviet DisUnion phase, the authorities of several countries moved to mop up the Children of the Bloody Path, only to find out that the group sported more than a few powerful toxic shamans.

By 2040, the group had abandoned their struggle to free their home countries from the grasp of governments they hated and the powerful megacorporations. While many believe that the loss of so many members crippled the group, the truth was that the survivors were battle hardened and the best of the best. Each survivor was tasked with building another cell, and encourage the best of those new cells to create new cells, in order to bring the strength of the group back up. Additionally, rather than scatter through a few towns and cities, the Children of the Bloody Path had gone global, hiding all around the world and using secure drops to communicate.

For the most part, the intelligence communities forgot about the Children of the Bloody Path, thinking of them as a shattered has-been, a relic of the Cold War and the Euro-Wars.

>>>>>Getting booooored....<<<<<
<Quickly Kid 15:41:13/8-15-2051>
>>>>>Pay attention, it's about to get good.<<<<<
<Chrome Wretch 15:42:59/8-15-2051>

In 2051 the Children of the Bloody Path emerged from hiding and into the shadows, hiring runners to gather certain supplies and snatch certain people. With Shadowrunners natural inclination to avoid researching too hard into an employer, it made it easy for the Children of the Bloody Path to begin massing the equipment they were after, including an old US Army MLRS vehicle that had been sitting in a decommissioning depot yard since the late 1990's. Additional runs secured several old MRLS H104 rocket pods, consisting of 6 11" rockets per pod.

>>>>>So what? They had some old crap. Those rockets would be nothing but junk.<<<<<
<Quickly Kid 15:44:23/8-15-2051>
>>>>>Isn't that mass of bone on top of your neck unweidly?<<<<<
<Chrome Wretch 15:46:33/8-15-2051>

Shadowland became alerted to this goings on with the following post on the Shadowland technical datahost.

>>>>>I've got a brain teaser for you... My employers have me kidnapping an old geezer who apparently used to be in the US military back before everything split apart. They just gave me a name, and when we did some digging, our decker found out that back in the bad old days, the old geezer was apparently something called an NBC Warfare Specialist and used to have government overwatch on him even after he got out. If that isn't strange enough, we heard that they'd grabbed some kind of old artillery vehicle and some old rounds for it. My question is, why would my patron want this old gray haired guy for, and what would he have to do with 2 barrels of toxic waste from the nuclear plant, a mobile milk pastuerization vehicle stolen from NAN, and a bunch of chemicals stolen from an SK clothing factory?<<<<<
<Zipperboots 16:32:15/4-4-51>

Curious, several members of Shadowland began to do some digging being the curious folk we are, and when the dust settled, it was Runners 17, Children of the Bloody Path 8. The vehicle was destroyed, several dozen gallons of chemical weapons were spilled into the ground, and the area was listed as a toxic dump site.





Bah, you get the idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

First job:
Steal Milk pastuerization mobile unit from NAN.
Second job:
Steal chemicals being moved by truck to a clothing factory.
Third Job:
Steal old MRLS wagon, maybe not US Army one, I think there is one in Fields of Fire
Fourth Job:
Red Herring
Fifth Job:
Snatch on a street chemist who commonly makes a street drug.
Sixth Job:
Aquire old rockets for it.
Seventh Job:
Red Herring.
Eighth Job:
Buy modern missile systems
Ninth Job:
Kidnapped technician/Rigger
Tenth Job:
Red Herring
Eleventh Job:

Well, once again, you get the idea...

Imagine the player's look of horror when the launch covers rotate back, and they realize just what they've done...

Given a terrorist group who is perfectly willing to kill tens of thousand exactly what they need. They have an artillery vehicle with a real good range. Each rocket has been retrofitted, thanks to the players, so that instead of explosive bomblets, it has chemical munitions rounds with bursting charges. Finally, the bomblets have been soaked in the toxic nuclear waste for over 30 days.

Now the MLRS is sitting on a hill, overlooking Seattle, and is about to fire...

Whacha gonna do?
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Chrysalis
post May 19 2009, 11:30 PM
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I would sit on stockpiles of food with low saltine content. That way when the apocalypse comes I can start a new corporation on the proceeds.

Seriously if the CEOs of AAAs have MAD effects triggered by their death and I would be a bit more of a nihilist I would go and drop an NLOS on the flight path of the CEO. I am sure 15 missiles are enough to take out the plane.
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Kerenshara
post May 20 2009, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE (Rusted Scrap Metal @ May 19 2009, 05:04 PM) *
Whacha gonna do?

Well, if you've GOT the mother huge MLRS, and you refitted guidance packages to ensure proper primary dispersal and fixed up the warheads for broader pattern...
I get inside my lead-lined box with canned air, food and water for 30 days and pray like heck the cavalry can decon the place before it runs out while I play solataire.

You SERIOUSLY know how to improve the sales of TummsTM, don't you?
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Rusted Scrap Met...
post May 20 2009, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 19 2009, 04:01 PM) *
Well, if you've GOT the mother huge MLRS, and you refitted guidance packages to ensure proper primary dispersal and fixed up the warheads for broader pattern...
I get inside my lead-lined box with canned air, food and water for 30 days and pray like heck the cavalry can decon the place before it runs out while I play solataire.

You SERIOUSLY know how to improve the sales of TummsTM, don't you?

Heh. That's without even shifting into professional paranoia.

And the MRLS wagon isn't even that big. Let's see, if I remember right, it was a 2 6-pack pod system, HEMMIT front chassis, a little larger than a semi-truck. Mother huge by normal standards, but still, not that hard. The big thing is... well... we might want to get into specifics. Suffice to say, that a Rigger mechanic with access to basic parts, some technical schematics, and some other stuff, and a MRLS wagon could be manufactured. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I can even think of how the warhead submunition pattern could be broader right off the top of my head. Probably with double bursting charge and airfoil... Hmmm... it wouldn't be that hard in the SR universe.

Remember, in the SR universe, the Soviet Union didn't collapse until the 2030's. Think of the steady progression in the NBC-R field, as well as the dispersal of the storage and manufacture areas (which was done during the Cold War for specific reasons) across wide areas.

Now, remember that the Crash went after high security databases (some believe that the Crash was caused by a mutating dog-brain attack MAD program set) and think of what military databases are. Don't be fooled, the data on the locations, not the mention the inventories and all that great stuff, involved in a hotloaded FSTS or ASP is classified at least Secret, and often moves into Top Secret or TS-SSBI real quickly.

Then combine that with the split up of the nations, and the Ghost Dance. How much stuff got lost? How much stuff was put under volcanic ash and never recovered.

Also, you have a lot of people with a general piss-off, you have medical technology able to permit street docs to perform high end implantation surgery in a hotel room, you have a proliferation of weapons and equipment out there.

If you want a Shadowrun mission involving NBC-R weaponry, I could give you ten scenarios in less than hour.

Everything from a chemical weapon attack like in the posting above, or a enriched fuel rod incandescence radiological attack on an enclosed area, or a biological attack across a certain vector to allow a Corp to move in and take over.
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Kerenshara
post May 20 2009, 03:52 AM
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QUOTE (Rusted Scrap Metal @ May 19 2009, 09:40 PM) *
Heh. That's without even shifting into professional paranoia.

*snip*

If you want a Shadowrun mission involving NBC-R weaponry, I could give you ten scenarios in less than hour.

Everything from a chemical weapon attack like in the posting above, or a enriched fuel rod incandescence radiological attack on an enclosed area, or a biological attack across a certain vector to allow a Corp to move in and take over.


Actually, the MLRS was built off the M2 Bradley chassis - it's literally a tank. Call it 25 tons.

But I guess the point always has been that the 2070s chemicals and ESPECIALLY biologicals would make the old stuff pale. And like I mentioned, especially against the old biologicals, 2070s OTC antiviral and antibiotics would be like ThlenolTM for a flu. No doubt with 2070s tech it's doable, and not actually that hard to pull off a very large scale attack. But there'd be little point in raiding the old stashes to do it.

The exception of course is the fisionables in the nukes. Uranium 235 is a cast iron bitch to separate. And plutonium, while easier, requires some high level (as in LARGE) gear. But if you recycled a bunch of old pits and casings (Depleted Uranium, useful for the high yield hybrid devices, but that's separate) you could reprocess and remanufacture tha hard parts. The rest of the bits are the equivalent of Radio Shack by 2070. And commercial explosives by then are precise enough to handle the implosive first stage trigger. Three shakes later and you're in business. THAT's something that could be highly dangerous, especially if there were old schematics to explain the REALLY advanced stuff (like the W88) to the neophyte wannabe supervillain.

OK, THERE is a scarry (and plot twisting) shadowrun. Prime runners, only, please.
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Rusted Scrap Met...
post May 20 2009, 05:19 AM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 19 2009, 08:52 PM) *
Actually, the MLRS was built off the M2 Bradley chassis - it's literally a tank. Call it 25 tons.

Was it? It's been almost 20 years since I've seen ones, and I'll admit, I was exhausted the last time I saw one, and only wanted a shower, some time in the bunk, and some stitches checked.

QUOTE
But I guess the point always has been that the 2070s chemicals and ESPECIALLY biologicals would make the old stuff pale. And like I mentioned, especially against the old biologicals, 2070s OTC antiviral and antibiotics would be like ThlenolTM for a flu. No doubt with 2070s tech it's doable, and not actually that hard to pull off a very large scale attack. But there'd be little point in raiding the old stashes to do it.

The most important part of the old stashes, from our wannabe supervillain's point of view, is the simple schematics that he can get out of pulling everything apart.

I know that it isn't as simple to make a dispersion device as I've deliberately made it sound.

Then again, don't knock all the pre-Crash stuff. I can't remember which book it was, Sly was one of the characters and it involved a piece of technology from Pre-Crash that would allow someone to read and alter data coming down a fiber optic cable. It was mentioned that while most of the stuff in those databases were replicated and redone, not everything was replicated. There was talk about the fiber-optic reading/writing system, some stuff involving vehicles, encryption stuff.

So it isn't entirely out of canon for something interesting to show up in an old log some where, that our would-be supervillain finds, and sends his minions to recover something very very very nasty that the Corps had all given up on or didn't even think of researching, but there it sits somewhere, in the dark, waiting.
QUOTE
The exception of course is the fisionables in the nukes. Uranium 235 is a cast iron bitch to separate. And plutonium, while easier, requires some high level (as in LARGE) gear. But if you recycled a bunch of old pits and casings (Depleted Uranium, useful for the high yield hybrid devices, but that's separate) you could reprocess and remanufacture tha hard parts. The rest of the bits are the equivalent of Radio Shack by 2070. And commercial explosives by then are precise enough to handle the implosive first stage trigger. Three shakes later and you're in business. THAT's something that could be highly dangerous, especially if there were old schematics to explain the REALLY advanced stuff (like the W88) to the neophyte wannabe supervillain.

OK, THERE is a scarry (and plot twisting) shadowrun. Prime runners, only, please.

They're pretty good runs. Yeah, I've been a part of them back in SRI and SRII, as well as GM'd them for other systems.

Mix in some toxic shamans rarely, and you've got some nasty stuff.
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Byron
post May 23 2009, 03:24 AM
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Where is all this stuff about "the glass desert" and Israel, and other nukes, what's this about? I dont remember ever reading about that, is it in a supplement? Is it in another book?
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Snow_Fox
post May 23 2009, 06:54 PM
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SR is 20 years old, there's stuff some of us cite from 1st ed. that is sort of accepted in the cannon even if they forgot to write it into the 4.a ed.
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Rusted Scrap Met...
post May 23 2009, 07:47 PM
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For some real fun, pick up Native American Nations II and check out the adventure in the beginning of it.
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Fix-it
post May 24 2009, 03:25 AM
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QUOTE (Byron @ May 22 2009, 09:24 PM) *
Where is all this stuff about "the glass desert" and Israel, and other nukes, what's this about? I dont remember ever reading about that, is it in a supplement? Is it in another book?



It's in the timeline, and was mentioned whenever the Desert Wars comes up, also in Year of the Comet, Shadows of Asia, and SOTA 2064

EDIT: whoops, missed a big section on it in Target: Wastelands

by the way;

NO ONE uses salted bombs. no one has ever built one. no group with an ounce of sanity ever will. those who do will have infamy forever. their names will become a curse.
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