Yes open transactions prevent embezzlement, so surely even today we have open transactions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Wait we're having a economic crisis, how did that happen? Swiss bank accounts exists for a reason and they are not going away.

Lets put in another way, it is best to be "seen" to embrace openness. But "you" CEO, or otherwise can make more money then that. The CC is not an entity based on the betterment of mankind. It's based on greed. And "greed" always requires a way to hide it.

Your second point is a lot more powerful but I still maintain sometimes that your method is not universally applicable. Non traceable cash has an appreciable use for those in power, thus even in a world where currency is completely virtual some method of duplicating that ability would be agreed upon.

Now excuse me I have an MRI appointment for the brain cancer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh and the comment on OTP.... That way lies madness. I've always hated Encryption in SR.

Actually swiss bank accounts are slowly but surely going away. Now the swiss can be forced to reveal ownership details and transaction histories, and you must supply complete personal details when openning an account, which was previously not required.

This is why all my income is invested in blow.

BlueMax
/invested?
//spent?
///you pick

You should look up a definition of embezzlement. I don't think that words means what you think it means.

Yes they are. UBS is closing US citizen's accounts under pressure from the IRS/USG and only paying them out in checks to the customer's US address or electronic fund transfers to a US bank. You know why? Because the IRS loves EFTs and is extremely fond of checks. They provide a trail that you can't cover up and is easy to audit.

Why couldn't it? If file size means nothing in SR the nuyen file could contain an incredible amount of information, right? Transfer of said nuyen to a certified account would just create a gap in the data trail, but there might be some nuyen that are tracked from creation to... well, infinity. Not arguing your point really. Just saying that SR tech would support this so why is it not so?

1) It would negate half the point of credsticks
2) We don't track file sizes because a) it's more bookkeeping than it's worth and b) we don't look quite as ridiculous when things continue to advance past the sizes we made up last year
3) Each nuyen would then have a different file size because they would go through different numbers of changes
4) And they would be /big/ files, because a single nuyen can easily go through a billion transactions in a day
5) It makes more sense for the records to be stored elsewhere so that they can be checked and cross-correlated more easily; otherwise we'd have runs where you have to find a specific nuyen just so someone could extract the transaction log.

I do not deny that Ancient knows what he/she is talking about; Ancient has been around. And as a corporation I would make damn sure that nuyen does not retain a full log of where its been. Corporations like to do shady and nuyen having a complete history of where its been would screw them. Hell, they'd find a different currency to traffic in.

But, there is this little tidbit from Unwired:
"However, data in 2070 is not only data. It carries extensive
meta-information of various kinds. The complete history of editors,
generators, programs, dates, and versions of programs used,
connections to other pieces of data like their location, search terms
used to find the data, and much more is stored. Most of the time,
the meta-information is larger than the data itself. This information
is especially important for data mining purposes, searches,
and bookkeeping. The amount of data available in 2070 is so vast
that finding a particular piece of data and getting its context is
often as important as the information content itself."

Apparently normal data stores a history of EVERYTHING that happens to it. Nuyen can definately be an exception to this, and until I hear an official statement say otherwise, the only metainfo that nuyen has is the digital signature. And certainly not any transaction history. Who'd ever use that currency?

Better yet, who would use a fiat currency in a chaotic world?

Alan Greenspan of all people.

I would imagine the rich and powerful in Shadowrun are smart. And would posses real wealth and not rely to any useful extent on fiat currency.

BlueMax
/invest in blow
// from the Drug traffickers
// or if you want to be pretentious, narcotraficantes

I think I understand what you mean BlueMax and I believe that corps have their tangible wealth. But its the seemingly small things, such as paying a black ops team, which forces them in dealing with an untraceable currency. For the last few decades my runners have been paid with nuyen on certified credsticks because it suppose to be untraceable. I'd like to know why its untraceable.

Because it is so written. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Thinking deeply about this, after the urge to throw yourself off a high building passes, will lead to an nearly irresistible urge to rewrite a couple of chapters of the core rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

BlueMax: What is that from? Looks like it would be an interesting read....

An Essay he wrote called
"Gold and Economic Freedom".

BlueMax

Cool thanks. I found the entire essay here if anyone else is interested.

Instead of trying to understand a technology that hasn't been invented, I find something simple for an explanation. We really don't know how the cybertechnology works, although, there are some pretty impressive prototypes. And the whole unwired world is "plausible" because we see wireless connections, but we DON'T see the global connectivity of Shadowrun. And, let us not ponder the actual 'reality' of magic. Remember, untraceable currency can be plausible, but when put under a microscope, it becomes less tangible.

The best 'answer' I offer is, there is so much at stake that the Corporate Courts (or whoever) created a system that works. Think of the Y2K thing. The only people who really had anything to worry about also had the resources to fix the problems before it became a problem. Maybe there is a specific type of technology that works with very limited types of information and the transactions required for digital currency. Nuyen isn't really "just another piece of information". It is the support for a global economy.

You could have your shadowrunners do some runs that give hints as to what nuyen is, and how it really works (without ever giving the whole answer), then have them notice that the corporation ankles they are dancing around are starting to tremble. When power like that quakes, they should keep their heads down. It will give them the idea that nuyen isn't as simple and stable as everyone (in or out of game) thinks, but stops the players from looking too hard. I mean, it is one thing to get the attention of a megacorp (massive resources with very little to stop them), but if the Corporate Courts have your name, that is a whole different story.

Thanks gang, I think I've got all the info I need. This is how I'm calling it in my campaign:

• Nuyen can only be stored in banks and on credsticks; not on commlinks or any other devices.
• Money can be transferred into and out of a credstick (up to the credsticks max) by a user without bank intervention.
• After a bank issues a credstick they no longer interact with or track the funds.
• All nuyen on a credstick actually resides on the credstick, not in a credit account.
• Since nuyen has a digital signature it can be tracked but there probably is no system that can wait and watch for it to be spent.
• Stolen nuyen may eventually be traced though so if you spend stolen nuyen at the same store every day there is a slight chance that you can be caught.
• Moving nuyen out of a credit account requires a password; possibly even some form of biometrics.
• Some idiots may store their credit account passwords on their commlinks; steal that file!

And that makes it highly ironic that its the same guy that was boss of the federal reserve when USA ended their use of the gold standard...

Sadly it seems that without some kind of physical good backing paper and accounts, its in continual free fall...

I was willing to leave this alone. I mean, there's one Gold Standardist on every forum and you're never going to see them give up their ways. You start posting articles supporting your insane point of view and trying to evangelise? Then I am compelled to come in and post the opposing viewpoint.

Look, I'm not up to this. I don't have the time, for a start. The Gaming Den had a thread on this where they even discuss Alan Greenspan. Please avail yourself of this discussion, it might help you to understand things.


By the way, Alan Greenspan's article that has been linked to? From the sixties. He's less crazy these days (like most modern politicians).

Heath,
I don't advocate a gold standard in real life. I think you assume, and it has most certainly made an ass out of me. The concern here is Shadowrun. I would love for you to find the time to post a view on why fiat currency would be useful in Shadowrun.
My concern about nuyen is its backing. Fiat currency is backed by a government. Shadowrun is a tumultuous world. Which government declared the nuyen legal tender? How do they enforce it?
If the Corp Council exercised more "World Government" influence, I could see the Council managing Nuyen. The massive legal and financial backing of Interpol in Ghost Cartels could be considered a start in that direction.
Would have sucked to have a bunch of rial when Aden woke up.
Or any pesos.
Or any US dollars.
Or any Canadian Dollars.
Or , should the nuyen be backed by Japan, any Nuyen. Occupations, giant earthquakes, and shaky power transfers are not nice to fiat currency.
I could go on...

But, I am looking for an answer for Shadowrun. I keep thinking this bored is about Shadowrun, am I wrong?

BlueMax

Iirc, nuyen is supposedly backed by the stock value of the corps whos representatives sit on the corp court...

oh, stocks in a basket. Kinda neat.
How do I buy shares in S-K again?

That would make sense if a third party regulated said stock market.
Its not like Shadowrun has stories of market manipulation... ohh wait.

According to the Sixth World Wiki


It may be out of date but if true, the currency at least has a government. And I guess it could be enforced through the Japanese Megas like Yamatetsu.

I should declare this now, when it comes to Shadowrun I am for the Ammo Standard.
APDS are dollars
EXEX are quarters
SNS are two dollars
Standard ammo is pennies.

BlueMax
/just got bought out
//in a Nanosecond
///and is very Cross

You can do that in Feral Chicago.

As soon as I have a Critters book for Fourth Ed, you bet your hoop I am running Feral Chicago.

BlueMax

I wish the original creator of that nuyen article had included a book and page reference...

And sadly i cant dig up where i read about the nuyen base, tho i suspect its close to a description of the orbital bank...

Ah, it seems corporate enclaves holds something interesting on page 58, specifically the timeline sidebar.

In 2036 japan grants zurich-orbital policy control over the nuyen. So while it starts out as japanese state currency, by 2036 it becomes the world courrency, controlled by the bank in the sky rather then the japanese national bank...

If it makes anyone feel any better, as a young freelancer I advocated the introduction of a currency based on the orichalcum standard, tentatively called Wuxbux (Ω) because a) I am horrible with names and b) the issuing institution was going to be based on the Snowdonian National Bank and Wuxing-Debeers' tonnage of natural orichalcum. The idea was that no matter what the current price of orichalcum in nuyen (which can fluctuate, as was seen during YotC), 1Ω could always be redeemed for 1 grain (10 grams) of orichalcum.

Fortunately, reason prevailed.

For a start, all the Megas accept Nuyen. It is probably in the contracts they sign when they become members of the CC (and you have to accept that they sign contracts when they become members). The Megas are organisations you can buy pretty much any product on the planet from. You can use Nuyen, therefore, to satisfy almost every need that exists. If that isn't enough to support the Nuyen in your opinion, then no mere Government is.

If the most powerful economic, political and social entities in the game world aren't enough to float a currency then I wonder if we're playing the same game at all. What fiat is stronger than massive transglobal corporations that manipulate entire continents? Am I to believe a body that is constrained to a powerbase with an area less than the size of the Chinese Empire at its height is more powerful?