Hi,

This is a bit of a ramble in terms of thoughts. One of my concerns is that Technomancers when built right have an immense possibility to find out anything. I mean anything within moments. This leads to the question of secure information. The attacker in Shadowrun always has the advantage - even against the most robust system in the game.

Now, how do you prevent your technomancer from becoming God? What is the function of secure data or even infiltration of a secure environment if he or she can in a moment penetrate the system through the electrical mains. As a GM the "no you can't" doesn't cut it. Then we have to have some very exotic security precaution, such as based on a submarine which surfaces once every six months for a data download/upload.

You can't use encryption since it is easily broken, you can't use obfuscation since technomancers can sift through billions of data better than google, the technomancer can track every commlink and break it open.

Do corps start writing things down on paper again?

As the naughty TM getting in trouble here I feel it is my duty to point out that SR4A does introduce a new category in the Data Search table of information that just isn't available on the Matrix.

It has an infinite Threshold and just can't be discovered with vanilla Data Search.

Information Sortilage and Resonance Realm searches are another kettle of fish....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Security is a balance between cost, protection and convenience. Having the most secure node in the world doesn't matter if everyone refuses to use it!

It's a game and the GM can prevent the TM from getting out of hand.

I view this more as an attitude problem than a game mechanics problem.

Hmm... make the systems more secure? See... It's all in the details. Decking used to be a very hard, very dangerous job. You had a very distinct possibility of dying... IC was scary. Make it so in your game. No, I cannot suggest rules for this as I can't bring myself to read anything more about 'Hackers' and TM's. However, it's surely possible. Having information simply not exist on the matrix is not a real option (ok, unless it's really obscure and ACTUALLY doesn 't exist), as that kind of defeats the point.

But there has to be something to make them think twice about recklessly taking information. It should not be candy from a baby. Is there a way to make IC not suck (I say this because of people here talking about them and how they aren't usually a problem)? Is there a way to make the character have to know where to get the information? This is of course, for non-basic information. "What is the address of Penumbra?" should be fine with Data Search, but "The employee file of a VP at Ares" should not.

With that as an example, couldn't you make the call, based on context and say that the TM must actually go into Ares system to find that info, as opposed to rolling one Data Search check? If this is still not a difficult thing (which the OP may be saying), it should be. There is no reason that breaking into Ares and taking the employee file of a VP should be easy. Other than "giving the system/IC more dice to roll", the only thing I can think of is that there could be Decker Guards in the system as well (as was usually the case... 10 years ago). This is, of course, assuming that matrix combat can be dangerous and/or the TM would have some kind of chance of losing.

Well, I'm nt sure if this will be helpful or not, or if I'm even going in the right direction.

No, while you are wandering away from the topic somewhat, you do make good points.

There has to be a line between the information available on the Public Matrix and that which is only found on private nodes and that requires Hacking to actually uncover.

Trouble here is that the case in point is a TM in a pretty high power game and she was searching The Nexus so the amount of available data was pretty stupid.

Thinking about it The Nexus really ought to have an interval of 1 minute even it is only one connected group of nodes. The amount of data stored there is maybe only an order of magnitude less than the entire Matrix and almost all of it is pertinent, unlike the vast amount of nonsense and spam that the Matrix consists of.

How much of the Nexus is pay per view these days?

I don't recall anything in canon about any of The Nexus being commercial. Once you have access you have access.

To be fair the information is spread through multiple sourcebooks, most of which are out of print, and not much of it has been updated to SR4.

I know there is stuff in Target: Matrix but I can't find my copy at the minute....

First,
Can someone describe the method and viability of the electrical main attack?
As to the question of using paper again, its close to that. In SR4 everything needs a manpower guard.
Astral == spirits or mage
Physical == Drones, meat guards
matrix == IC and spiders

For a year or so , I was pretty pissy when I came to this conclusion. Now, as a GM, I am ecstatic. This makes more sense as game design goes. Just as the Samurai fights the two guards outside the vault, the Hacknotaku (tm pending) must defeat the Spider on watch. Especially if its important information.



This applies to most of the game. Except for the plethora of paranormals we have to chose from...


BlueMax

I think it has alot to do with what information is available (beyond going to the great data haven in the matrix). Anyway, keep in mind not all data is on a wireless network.

In my opinion, most secured networks are not wireless but fiber optic. They may have some limited access to the matrix to do a data burst to transmit, but it will be a glacial node with a spider when it does. For giving TM's a challenge you'll need a Spider/TM or a really really good Tech spider.

In any event-posing challenge to hackers/TMs is very dependent (Peoples commlinks are easy to hack, it just takes time) on the situation. Most retail outlets have some (but not the best) protection to prevent the mass of script kiddies from ripping them off, a governemt/corp administrative type system would have a little more to keep out the common crook, a high tech research firm's system that houses their prototypes and such would be unaccessable, and have a layered defense that may take days or even weeks to hack (only a highly trained professional would have a remote chance).

I recall the old node system from SR1 and SR2 where in one adventure a system actually changed its connection diagram, now think about applying something similar to the current system.

This, and the fact that the GM has final say on whats really available. I always thought the intent of the TM was meant to be more perceptive and better at information sheparding overall.

Its an important role and Data Search is really just a GM tool to get information in the players hands they might not otherwise know without meeting a string of contacts.

Factor in glitches, and you can even shell out some misleading information that the TM (or everyone) takes as certainty leading to humerous effects on the game. Even without glitches, you could say that most/some of the information is directly conflicting (this happens on Wiki sites all the time when anyone is qualified as an expert) forcing the player to choose which to believe.

I don't have the book IFOM, but isn't there a Corrupt program or some other that purposefully wipes stuff off the matrix too?

Anything that you don't want found can have lots of reasons why it can't be found (or maybe they just find traces of it before it was corrupted and they have to do some more leg/webwork to track it down in cases you think it was too simple).

Or as my players say




But still, I don't think this thread is about data search. There is a more compelling story here


This doesn't sound like a Resonance Realm search, and I can't figure out what else it could be. Curiosity has me pinned to this thread.

That and having three TMs in the group.

BlueMax

I kind of assumed the OP meant using Data Search to find out info rather than having to break into a node and steal it, and where is the line drawn exactly.

I'd say general information with possible accuracy issues = Data Search
Straight from the horse's mouth (with possible intentional manipulation of facts) = Hacking into the source

But now that you mention it, what the hell is the electrical main...

The thing that you hook to your face to fry yourself to death. The main electrical line going into a building. I'm not sure why this is useful for things though. Other than the opening scene (or near the beginning anyway) of Resident Evil 3 when she was fighting those dogs...

If someone was approaching the game through science, which I strongly discourage, one could talk about real life (also bad) examples of data transmission over power lines. Which is just like your cable/dsl/phone it has a device you call a modem at the end. In this case, its just Hacking.

Now, I could see a game where a electromagnetic individual (stronger than I think TMs are) projecting his control through the lines, power supply and into the computers. If that were the case, there would be a "filter" defense.

I.... will ... stop.... rambling.

BlueMax