First off, for those of you noticing my influx of nit picky questions, I apologize, I'm just trying to get clarity. Thank you for your time.

SR4

So anyway, Hermetics resist drain with Logic and Willpower, whereas shamans resist drain with Charisma and Willpower. Logic translates into several skills and knowledges, Charisma translates into social skill checks and also determines the number of spirits a character can have bound. In the Astral Logic determines Agility, and Charisma determines Strength.

That is the basics. Now here is my issue:

I have not found what agility does in the Astral (it does not determine your to hit as that as now determined by willpower).
Strength in the Astral lets you hit things harder. Granted if you are a magic user you would likely just shoot a spell, but if you were fighting someone with high counterspelling or you were afraid of drain or some other easily plausible situation in which you would need to hit something came along, Strength just got really important.

Most logic linked skills are primarily used for grease monkeys and hackers not mages. There are a few that stand out (like medicine) that would be nice for any character. But magic users can get the heal spell so they wouldn't really need medicine or first aid. Data search and computer don't actually use your logic so they ignored. So when you boil it down, for a mage Logic mainly goes into knowledges. I would like to note that knowledges are really nice, but there is a reason they come much cheaper than other skills, they are not as useful as the others.

There are only a few Charisma linked skills, all of which are social. Lets assume for this example the GM is running the game by the book, meaning that social encounters are rolled up to see what happens (note: This is not in any way an attempt to start up a debate on the topic of rolling for social encounters, please refrain form arguing about it here). All of the social skills have uses that come up in almost every run (except leadership maybe, I'm not really sure how that skill works to be honest, and instruction obviously wont come up all that much), these are skills from which any shadowrunner can benefit (although the character fluff might not work well with a high charisma).

In addition, as stated before, charisma determines the amount of bound spirits a character can have.

So with my math, it sounds like hermetics kinda get screwed. Am I missing something (note: This is not a debate about fluff. I understand that someone might want to play an intelligent character over a charismatic one, I'm simply talking about the mechanics).

First Aid is wonderful for a magic character. You can't magically heal drain, but you can with mundane means (i.e., a medkit 6 + logic 5 + First Aid 4).

Logic also determines the amount of Bound Foci you can have, which means you can have a bunch of Sustaining Foci to buff your mage up in addition to the almost required Power Foci.

Octopiii thank you. That makes me feel much better. - Does the bound foci max include fetishes?

And for the record, I didn't know you could heal drain with mundane means. I thought I read somewhere that you could not.

You're only half right there. When you're astrally perceiving, you use your Willpower as the attack stat against astral creatures. When you are astrally projecting, the full mental-physical stat switch takes over and your Logic is your Agility, used for attacking and defending. Given that you have no armor on the astral plane (barring the astral armor spell), it is very important not to get hit. A hermetic mage will be better at astral combat than a shaman... Agility is far more important than Strength.

Yeah, you can use mundane means to heal drain. The only limitation to the hermetic mage healing himself with mundane means is that if he knocks himself out he's going to have problems. Finally, first aid STACKS with heal - you'd have to be an absolute moron to only get one or the other, when they work together like salt and vinegar.

Also logic is much easier to boost via implants - cerebral boosters mean logic 8 is a reality for most people.

Counterpoint is the fact that elf is a viable metatype to get a Charisma 8 without any hit to your Essence/Magic.

Yup. I actually think intuition is the best tradition though which you cannot really get to 8 any which way, so heh.

Extraordinary Attribute
Genetic Improvement
Surge
Drugs

with an intuitive Dance
Medicineman

Arcana and Enchanting also use Logic, so Hermetics tend to be better Spell designers and Item Crafters.

That is only sorta true. They are tied to the logic stat but many if not most of the tests for the skill are magic+skill.

Hadn't looked at the rules in some time, but you seem to be right for Enchanting at least. Logic is still needed for Arcana however.

Also, one thing people forget is that Logic is the maximum number of active foci you can wear. Foci are essential for a combat mage, so even non-logic traditions are forced to put some points into it. Charisma on the other hand only limits your bound spirits, and I think bound spirits are a complete boondoggle. 1000 per force means that they are a very expensive way to get things done, and a whole bunch of them would cost you as much as a shiny new focus. In my experience, the best thing to do is to just summon up spirits as you need them and save your nuyen for more permanent things.

Maybe, the 4A update for street magic isn't out yet I don't think. Making arcana magic based was an optional rule in street magic, it might get bumped to a normal rule when the 4A changes hit the errata sheets.

Especially with focus addiction out in the game I rarely see myself sporting more focuses than I'm willing to make any non dumb brute, dumb. That was poorly worded, but basically I have a hard time seeing me drop logic on any character who isn't supposed to be dumb below 3, and I don't see myself with 4+focuses very often.

I agree with OP, I think logic is less useful than charisma, and I also agree with another earlier poster that an intuitiontradition is also more useful for great assesensing and perception. The foci and astral projection things are true enough. Hermetics are fairly free to do exactly what they like in RP though - no mentor spirit creating restrictions on their conduct, and they boss spirits around with impunity, they don't bargain with them. So they probably have the better "RP" aspect, in terms of power (if you equate power with options). Of course, it can also be excellent fun to play a shaman fluff wise...

did they change that in an errata?>

I believe people go around this by applying first aid then applying magical healing after.

yeah doesnt everybody know that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Speaking as a rules lawyer who prides himself on encyclopedic knowledge of game rules (so my GM doesn't need it, take your Stormwind Fallacy elsewhere), not everybody knows every little trick of the game. It's hardly fair to make fun of someone for not knowing something. Not all of us live and breathe SR.

Intuition traditions are awesome for combat mages. Since combat mages likely have good physical and magical skills, Intuition increases Initiative basically free, and does help Perception while they're at it. Also, since a combat mage might be leaving the Charisma and Logic based skills to others-Charisma 2 and Logic 3 would likely be okay-especially if they specialized more spellcasting. I find the best combat mage I played went fighting and casting, with not as much in the spirit department, and a 3 logic still allows a few foci to help. This allow a nicer boost to all their physical stats.

Each stat has it's own little plusses as a drainstat, IMO.

TBH, I've never understood the point of that particular restriction. It just requires tiresome bookkeeping and acts as a trap for people who don't read everything cover to cover.

Logic, pun not intended. When you magically heal a target, you close the wounds first aid would tend.

It's a Liquor before beer vs beer before liquor effect, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

System wise it's probably no big deal. But medicine wise, magic on an untreated wound does the same job as first aid. It staunches bleeding, closes wounds, etc. First aid only works on wounds that are still open and untreated, that's with it's "first." If you partly heal it with magic, it's already had that basic care and additional bandages and splints and sutures won't matter much.

I meant no malice, hence the smiley face. just one of those shadowrun quirks that everybody likes to point out.