those types tend to not be as good at the actual fighting

Guardian Spirits are pretty damn good at 'actual fighting' IME.

Judging from how much it costs to outfit and equip a Rigger PC, I'd say having live spider security would cost a lot. Also, what happens if there's two alarms at once? The rigger can only be jumped into one drone at a time.

If the rigger at an off-site location can talk to the drones and building security system, so can your hacker.

There is the possiblility of hardwired dedicated lines to connect the Rigger to the remote sites. These may be vulnerable, but are most likely underground and fairly difficult to illegally access both quickly and unnoticed.

That's an interesting charge, as I specifically designed the options to be available to low level and price-conscious types. Only tactic #5 requires a large allocation of resources. Realistically, how much do you think contracting with a security firm for the services of a Rigger should an alarm be sounded cost? I would imagine not much, as one Rigger can realistic handle dozens of facilities as he doesn't need to be jumped in unless an alarm should be sounded. The same goes with the contract Mage. He spends 2k to bind a Force 4 spirit with a few services. Then he goes on with his life, until he gets a commcode call - one of his customers needs spiritual help! He pulls up a picture of the captain, ceo, head researcher, whomever of the facility, calls his spirit, and tells it to obey that person's one command. It may be months, or even years, until he gets that call from one relevant facility - in the meantime, that one spirit can realistically be utilized for coverage for dozens of facilities, much as the security rigger.

On-site defense is not the only option available to corporations. More secure, perhaps, but equivalencies can be contracted cheaply and then written off for tax purposes.

Judging from how much it costs to outfit and equip a Rigger PC, I'd say having live spider security would cost a lot. Also, what happens if there's two alarms at once? The rigger can only be jumped into one drone at a time. Similarly, magic security, even minimially, cost a great deal. The spirit can't be at more than one site at a time, so the mage needs to summon one for every site. Additionally, it needs to be of a type that can provide Magical Guard, in order to provide counterspelling; and those types tend to not be as good at the actual fighting.

I don't make a habit of memorising spirit types, but I thought all spirits had Unarmed Combat equal to their Force rating? If so, any spirit with Magical Guard would be awesome. Even if that isn't true, you're relying on spirits in this instance with Magical Guard to provide counterspelling assistance, not necessarily waste the opposition (although granted it would be ideal to have both). Using their powers to complement the mundane security (guards, drones, etc) would work however.

Since according to the fluff, most wage mages are Hermetic, I think that means that they don't have any spirits they can summon with Magical Guard. I don't think Shamans have any, either. You have to go to the esoteric traditions in order to find spirits with that power, and they're much more rare.

I don't think Shamans have any, either. You have to go to the esoteric traditions in order to find spirits with that power, and they're much more rare.

Outside of the NAN, shamanism is no more common than many of the other traditions from Street Magic. It may seem to be so as a remnant of the early SR focus on Native Americans, but that's largely gone (no more Tribesman arcetype or Tribal Shaman) and so too should be the belief that Shamanism is the #2 most practiced tradition (I still agree on Hermetic magic being the worldwide standard of comparison - much like English is the worldwide standard language for pilots).

We're in a longrunning game where each character has at least 175 earned karma. The mages have become very good at what they do. It only took three mana/stunballs to decimate their ranks, and that's easily survivable even with a low background count.

While the Native American variant would be limited, shamanism as a belief system exists worldwide, and in fact is one of the most common belief systems out there.

Lol, now I get your problem. Your mages have become the Magic Apocalypse by this point. Wtf are you doing having them fight junkies? That's like hiring Blackwater to take down some fuzzy bunnies. If you're not running with the canon characters by that point (or at their level at least), everything is just too easy to be any fun. This is the same exact problem I see over and over, post after post of "I send the PCs after gangers and the gangers just die! What nerf must I use???" The more you talk about your SR4 experiences, the more certain I am that your GMs just have no clue. I wish I could phrase it less offensively, but dude. That's just weak. 175 karma characters against a horde of unenhanced mundanes. That's called "not even trying." Like it or not, but power level has to scale with karma level. If it doesn't, there's no more game, it's a turkey shoot, where the turkeys have no feet and clipped wings.

The more you talk about your SR4 experiences, the more certain I am that your GMs just have no clue. I wish I could phrase it less offensively, but dude. That's just weak. 175 karma characters against a horde of unenhanced mundanes. That's called "not even trying." Like it or not, but power level has to scale with karma level. If it doesn't, there's no more game, it's a turkey shoot, where the turkeys have no feet and clipped wings.

I was the GM. Have been for the better part of 20 years, with various groups. And you know it. Reported for personal attack.

You overestimate what I know about you. I had no idea that you were the GM, or how long you've been doing it -- maybe you've told me, but it sure didn't stick in my memory. The point is that you can't take characters that are way too powerful for the challenge, have them mop the floor, and claim that this proves that some aspect of the game is broken. I was not intending to make a personal attack, but only to emphasize something you seemed not to accept, that putting PCs against challenges they cannot possibly lose against is not going to expose flaws in the system, but only flaws in the use of the system.

I was the GM. Have been for the better part of 20 years, with various groups. And you know it. Reported for personal attack.

Literally hundreds of gangers on kamikaze should be a threat to even the most seasoned runner. A Yama King should make them lose sphincter control. It should not go "Manaball-manaball-grenades-manabolt" and it's all over.

Judging from how much it costs to outfit and equip a Rigger PC, I'd say having live spider security would cost a lot. Also, what happens if there's two alarms at once? The rigger can only be jumped into one drone at a time. Similarly, magic security, even minimially, cost a great deal. THe spirit can't be at more than one site at a time, so the mage needs to summon one for every site. Additionally, it needs to be of a type that can provide Magical Guard, in order to provide counterspelling; and those types tend to not be as good at the actual fighting.

If the rigger at an off-site location can talk to the drones and building security system, so can your hacker. Not to mention things like jammers and bolt cutters. It's likely to be a false economy.