True, Drain is pretty much unique to Shadowrun. A careful mage isn't going to take Drain often, though. It is a good mechanic, just not a major restriction on magic. I do like the fact you can overcast easier, making the risk of physical damage more of a reality.


Also true. In SR 1-3, even one box of damage could seriously degrade your performance. It's also fairly easy to get that one wound on someone.

I have to disagree here. While none of the changes have been as drastic as 4e Forgotten Realms, there's been a lot of dramatic and world-shaking changes made to the world. Dunkelzahn's death, for example, destroyed a megacorp and created two others. And, of course, the change from 3e to 4.X has left a lot of us old-timers shaking our heads. Those weren't evolutions, those were serious plotline rewrites.


True, but it's a matter of degree. I ended up breaking Champions (the precursor to Hero) the first time I played it, by accident. In what was supposed to be a gritty, street-vigilante game, I had a character running around with a 9-die HKA-- enough to take out a tank. I had no idea how powerful that was, and I would have toned it back if asked; but the GM was new to the system, too.

Some systems break more readily than others. I'd put SR4 at about the middle of the spectrum: decently stable, with easily breakable bits.

I would say that those are examples of plot advancement, not plot rewrites...

I've run into one other system that has wound penalties. Blue Planet. Though there is no condition track or even hitpoints. You die when it's appropriate (generally that your penalties are so high that you can't do anything).

In the one game I played it pretty much came down to whoever took a hit first lost. Of course, we weren't playing a game by RAW, so compared to average humans (which is what we were fighting for the most part) were were severely overpowered (though I did end up in a (friendly) boxing match with my NPC boss--who beat the snot out of me, landing me in the hospital for two months).

They didn't so much advance the plot as take it, shake it up, put it in a blender and hit frappe. And I liked Dunkelzahn's death; I had a fun time roleplaying through it and the fallout. But let's face it, it wasn't advancing the plot like RA:S to Brainscan; it was a serious change to some of the fundamentals of the world.


I can think of several, the most prominent of which is Savage Worlds. Their "spiral of death" is a bit more brutal than Shadowrun, since the wound penalties affect your soak rolls. It's a bit harder to get that wound on somebody, although a single lucky roll can take you from fine to dead instantly.

"Conan! What is best about Shadowrun?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the fans."

I think SR4A is the best incarnation so far and generally quite balanced, and it has fantastic fluff. If you play with folks wanting a fun game SR will give it to you. If you play with a bunch of ultra-min/maxers you will get supercharacters very quickly. But even that isn't necessarily a problem, provided all players are on the same footing. If that's what you get, it's simply a high power campaign, is all. It's only a problem is half the group is low power and half is high. All systems break down with only one or two PCs focusing on min/maxing. It is just easier to unbalance some systems than others, SR being one of the easier ones, probably (in contrast to D&D4e - very balanced, but also a lot more restricted in options - although for my two cents, I like it too!)

I almost forgot!

NO ENCOUNTER TABLES!

No loot tables.

And no sliding experience scales or variable progression costs!

No rigid classes.

No "Mega Damage"!

NO LEVELS!

Sorry, just had to add thoses to my list.

*grin*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

You, sir, get a cookie.

And it works on several levels.

The rules work for me and the groups I play with. We've some minor gripes and some GM (me included) use their share of houserules but on the whole it works for us.

What I really like is:
* Enough complexity to make it interesting and detailed (the combat is more than 'I shoot, he shoots, I shoot, he shoots' and more interesting and narrative than 'I use my xxx skill and combo with my xxx skill') but not too complex either.
* No character classes
* No Mana Point or Spell slots. You don't have to hoard your spells and you can cast small spells for fun.
* Easy to adjust without breaking the whole system
* A good balance between lethality and playability.

As far as breaking games I agree, take Earthdawn for example. I broke a character just by chance. It was simple. Having never played before, having no idea what the setting was, and not having time to read it through I choose to play a human (versatility ftw (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ).......

Though by the same token that is about the only campaign setting I would be willing to play 4th ed in. It just isn't DnD anymore. Actually I stopped buying the books after the FR campaign setting. Is 4th actually breakable? Yes some things fit better with others but that is more partial optimization more than anything else.

But as far as likes think Kerenshara summed everything up quite nicely. About the only thing I semi-dislike (can suspend my disbelief since it's the core part of the game) is with how runners can actually exist with how advanced everything is supposed to be. Regardless of what skills/abilities/magic you may have if someone puts the resources into it they WILL find you and make you cry for mommy. If just simply to mind-rape you and follow whatever you stole....

Veteran's Armor. But it was removed via errata.

Beyond that, no. It's impossible.

You can gimp yourself, sometimes without realizing it, but it basically works like this:

Name me your class and which of two stats will be higher than the other, and I will tell you all of your power choices from level 1 to 30, probable feats, and likely race, and some items at any given level.

How can I do this? Because your build is my build is that guy's build, is everyone else's build.

It's like trying to make an army of gingerbread men using two cookie cutters shaped like people: all you're doing is adding different colored frosting (aka fluff).

Name me just your class and I'll tell you exactly what you'll be doing in battle, every battle. I need not know your feats, powers, or weapons. Every class fights like any other member of that class (I built two diametrically opposed Warlords and fought with both in two different games, I couldn't tell I was playing a different character and had a different retinue).

I only just started playing D&D4e, so I have no personal investment in this. But I'd be interested, academically, to see you take on this challenge. I have a second level Eladrin wizard; tell me all about him.

Off-topic, but I have to disagree with that. I have an 8th level Warlord I've been playing for just about a year. I've played him considerably different in combat due to whether my party makeup forced me to tank (a poor tank, but tank I did), strike or sit back and heal. Now, while my power makeup did not change, which powers I was using during combat (the at-wills, obviously) and the overall feel to combat for me were quite different.

Maybe warlord is a bad example, but looking at their powers up to level 8, the class is played quite differently depending on the power selections. There's a lot of changes where a warlord would need to move in order to trigger some of the powers over others. Many of the heals you can just be within 5 to 10 squares to use. So, at least with this class, I have found several major differences in how they play out.

Back to the original topic, I don't know of any other game that is tailored to the fluff and metaplot as Shadowrun. I mean, when I think of other games, first and foremost, I'm thinking game mechanics. Obviously, that varied a lot more back in the 80s and 90s, before OGL and all that consolidation in the market. Playing games like Twilight 2000, DnD, Vampire and so forth, I would think first about the game mechanics and then about the setting. DnD and Vampire were all pretty generic setting wise...for me, medieval fantasy and modern, but generic. Even Twilight 2000, it was generic post-apoc. But Shadowrun, was not a generic setting...there was metaplot, timelines and major occurrences that everyone seemed to share and play through. I never cared much what the game mechanics were, because we were playing Shadowrun!

To me, that is the good!

I was a front line warlord too, one party had one fighter (in a party of 8, so two tanks were needed) the other game was so small that I was the only tank, so I know how that plays.

One of my gripes with the warlord is the "hey you, hit him" ability has a rang of "melee" which means, as far as I can tell, I must be standing next to my comrade in order to direct him (which is counter-intuitive to a "leader class").

As for your wizard, I need which stat is higher (there are two main stats for wizards, one is int, I've forgot the other), and I'll get back to you.

I think that Sr has some major advantages over other RPGs in the same genre:
* First and foremost is that the no level system plays well into modern society were people have a general skill set that morphs over time and no one is highly specialized anymore (when was the last time you saw a Blacksmith, sure you have steel workers but they can do more then just smithing).
* Magical drain is a huge bonus to the feel of SR and something that I really miss when I play other RPGs. It gives you the feeling that you can cast spells indefinitely but the "realistic" consequences of doing so. I never thought spell slot to be very "authentic".
* Little to no magical gear. I love this point, it says I don't have to have a + whatever gun to be a decent player. Technology should always be equalled out by magic.
* The backstory is gold (much better then D&D). It makes it easy for GMs to immerse PCs into the campaigns.

The downsides to the system mainly stem from the fact that the latest edition is still going through growing pains. I tend to compare it to SR2 for purposes of "brokenness". Give it a couple more years of steady development and most of the kinks will be ironed out.

Ahhh...yeah, since we started playing at the beginning the whole "melee" range on commander's strike was a back and forth affair. We ended up keeping that power ranged, so the warlord could do his "leadership" abilities at range. Force them to be in melee with the target of the free attack and yeah, things get skewed quite a bit...

Actually that is why he asked for your two highest stats in addition to class. A cha warlord pretty much works one way, a Str warlord another. Race other than minor benifts doesn't factor into it a lot.

In general having balanced class's is a really bad idea for rpg. Your characters shouldn't be balanced with eachother, the resulting party should be balanced (hopefully, hehe). Now I generally agree with a previous poster saying normally the characters should pick a certain powerlevel and make sure everyone is in agreement. However in SR have seen that it doesn't matter so much as your team is typically outclassed at least numberically and since the goal is to be proactive you try to modify situations where you have an advantage. SR seems to do a really good job at this.

But inregards to other good systems, would have to say Starwars - Saga is awsome. Fairly fast pacced fits the setting, even though the jedi aren't completely overpowering. Mechanic wise it also works great.

I emailed Wizards about it back when the adventure was published and we had slightly-less-than legal PDFs of the books (we did have them on pre-order for when they came out) but I haven't heard back from them. On that or any other 4e question.

We made the power ranged too, and decided that "melee" referred to the range from ally to enemy, meaning I couldn't command an archer or magician. Excuse me, wizard.



As an aside, I missed "Eladrin" when I first read this and got "wizard" and had already jumped to the conclusion that you were playing an elf. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Note: Optionals listed due to both a feat that lets you pick 3 (that many wizards will pick up being the ONLY wizard only feat for the heroic tier), plus slight variation in build (some powers just suck). Powers noted as prepared are more likely to be the character's default loadout.

Cookie Cutter Wizard, to level 10


Edit:
I will concede that a wizard has more viable options than a warlord. Of 4 possible warlord powers one lines up with a choice made at character creation (INT vs. CHA) and the other two are generic (one of which is outright terrible). Leaving a choice between two powers, one of which is usually slightly better.

Why play Shadowrun, indeed?
Neuromancer meets Terminator, meets Batman, meets Lord of the Things.
Throw in Aliens, Zombies, Lawnmover Man, Batman, The Transporter.
Maybe some Battletech or Warhammer 40k influences. Certainly Watchmen.
Sin City too. X-Men?
I think that should be enough for about anyone . . .

R O F L M A O !

Always a pleasure, Stahlseele, but that's fluff, not "system"...

And I will have you know that some of those references, and the order you listed them in, had me completely violating Rule Number One (Do NOT Visualize!) in a big way. I think that's why I laughed so hard.

Been gaming for... well some time. I've got 1st ed core books for shadowrun, GURPS, Ars Magica, briefly owned them for AD&D and the old D&D. I've assisted in several "homegrown" systems as a play tester and general adviser... blah blah blah.

I've loved Shadowrun since I first read it. Loved it to pieces. I still run "Food Fight" at least once with every group given even the least excuse. I'm not sure I would ever try to port it to anyother system - it does itself quite well.
Yes the matrix rules have been making me go bald faster for years... I've also got and used the GURPS hacking rules from thier Cyberpunk supliment. They made me CRAVE the Shadowrun Decking rules - yes I found them a shade more believable from a computer science standpoint, but they are way less dramatic/ fun, also rather math heavy. I'd use them - but not in an overly cinematic or action oriented game.
The Shadowrun magic system beats the unholy heck out of the D&D 1-3.5 ed rules - Don't get me wrong, I've used (and enjoyed) the D&D magic rules and made them make sence and be rather fitting, but only by hamming it up HARD (as both a GM and a player) and cramming the roleplaying down the games throat. I've never player (or looked at) the D&D 4th and am unlikely to do so without pressure.
That said it is not the best over all system I've seen: I personally like both the GURPS and Ars Magica systems markedly more. Especially the Ars Magica system (then again it had better be a *explitive deleted* good magic system, it was over half the core book with the spell listings/ examples taking up another fifth easily).

Why do I run Shadowrun in perferance to these most of the time? Faster to learn, easier character generation, simplier for new players to learn and veterans know what to expect, Stuffer Shack. The cross genre also allows a broader set of characters then most (aside from GURPS transdimetional / spacetime non-sence) so there are very few character idea I have to outright veto or turn aside. And its dang fun doing crime.

System Wise?
Because even if i don't like it, the SR3 and 4 Systems are easy to understand and use.
Easy to adapt to do most things you want them to do too. Hand full of Attributes.
Hand full of Skills. Hand full of ONE KIND OF DICE. No Rulers, No Hexes, no Miniatures.
Nothing else. It's a quick and dirty System, useable and playable just about everywhere.
OK, Character Creation is a bit of a bitch, i will give you that . . But at least, there is no
death in character creation . . FOR THE CHARACTER ABOUT TO BE CREATED at least . .

Dexterity. Intelligence is higher, though, sitting at a 20.

Your selection is good, but not what my wizard has. You're pretty close, though. Like I said, I have no personal investment in this; it's just that my wizard has been pretty effective even without me knowing the most optimal selections.

Back to Shadowrun, though, I will agree that Shadowrun magic has it all over Vancian magic.

Screaming Eagle: You really find character creation to be fast? Even with help, I personally cannot create an effective character in less than two hours. That means me helping an experienced player while using a spreadsheet. Maybe faster than Gurps, I can see that, but still not fast by any stretch of the imagination.

I think wizard breaks the mold a little by having well rounded abilities.

Compare to Warlord Utils level 2: