Poll nazi time. Why did you make it so people could select more than one? That has the potential to mess up your results. You can't both know a few young gamers and know a lot of them, and you can't both think that they don't play it, and that they always do. I dunno why they would pick more than one, but the option to makes your outcome less reliable.

And like I've been saying, people need to pay attention to the neutrality of their answers. "I am surrounded by squalling brats!" is an answer that tends to skew results because of its negative connotations. Some people might know a good number of younger SR players, but don't view them as brats, and thus would be more likely to report an innacurate response like "I know a few."

Also, you have answers that are non-responsive to the question. "Children shouldn't play SR" does not answer the question of how many kids you know who play it. If a respondent picked that one only, then you know their opinion about children playing the game, but you do not know their opinion about whether they know any who do. Now, the fact that multiple results are selectable enables them to both answer the question and also vote for how they think kids shouldn't play. But it is unnecessarily confusing and misleading to have that response in there. It is furthermore non-neutral -- people can vote that kids shouldn't play, but they can't vote that kids should play. That means you're only getting respondents who agree with that statement. You've got no clue how many disagree with it and how strongly they do, and thus no real measure of the respondents' attitudes as a whole.

You also haven't defined your terms in the question themselves. What's a younger gamer? Some people might play with a whole bunch of 17 year olds, but decide that child means under 15, and say they know none. Others might play with a bunch of 20 year olds, and decide that below the drinking age counts as younger. So you're not sure what your responses mean, which means they're not very informative.

I know, you probably don't care, but this is something I'm interested in. People needn't bother telling me that the poll is just for fun and I shouldn't comment about its accuracy or lack thereof. I will anyway, in the perhaps vain hope that people pay attention to their polling choices. If you want to know opinions, you have to ask questions in such a way that you actually get them. If you don't care about accuracy, why even have a poll, instead of just asking the question via normal post? I'm just trying to help people see that it does matter how you phrase both your questions and responses so that you can achieve your goal of learning opinions.

Here's how I would have designed it: "How many people below age 18 do you know who play Shadowrun?" (None. 0-5. 5-10. More than 10.) "How popular do you think Shadowrun is with people under 18 compared to other PnP RPGs?" (Not popular at all. Somewhat popular. About the same. More popular. Much more popular.) "How popular do you think PnP RPGs are with people under 18 compared to other types of games (such as video games and CCGs)?" (Same responses as last one).

I'm lucky on that end...I have an almost 2 year old and a 7 month old. My wife is great and I can get away every Monday (minus the occasional holiday or family event) to get my gaming on. Now, in our group of 6 people, we alternate GMs every other week, so one week its DnD4 and the next its SR4. I GM the SR4 game and find plenty of time at work and sometimes at home to get my plans together. I don't write a lot of stuff down though, so after most games, I'm like, "Damn, I forgot to say/do something". But it works.

I'm not saying that it hasn't effected RPGs. I'm saying that non-combat ones arent being effected. WoW caters to a the crowed who want to go through dungeon crawls or have strategies on combat tactics. It doesnt cater to people who want to have improv acting yet (EVE actually tried more to cater to that crowed and still comes up short). Things like WOD, Noblilis, Unknown Armies, etc arnt going to see their numbers impacted like D&D, Shadowrun, WHFRP, etc are.

I would have to say that the general consensus amongst those manufacturing, distributing and selling games that the hobby has been pretty much mauled by MMORPGs and console games. And I don't see anything to prove them wrong.

You know, this gets brought up all the time.

Where are people getting these "numbers" from? Yes, the industry is in a slump, but so are a whole bunch of other industries.

This is also part and parcel of the whole, "Not even Magic will save WotC in 2011!" crack someone made earlier.

Everyone throws around this phrase or something near it but never throws out hard numbers. So c'mon, throw up some hard numbers.

Also, imagine that I'm quoting and bolding what Larme said.

If they're still printing the books things can't be all bad, someone must be making money somewhere. I suspect kids (high schoolers) are still getting their introductions to RPing games, but perhaps not as many as might have who are instead going for WoW and similar (or perhaps playing both). Although it could also work the other way. Kids try out WoW and like it, but feel like there should be more to it. Que visit to local game shop. What is this D&D game...? Voila. Then after getting bored with medieval elves, they see SR4A and go - Elves with guns!? hell yeah!! Hence the players tend to be a bit "greyer". Nothing necessarily wrong with that. Oh and the art of SR4 generally sucks (up until SR4a - much better), which hurts the chances of a newbie being inspired to pick up one of the books that first time, and think, yeah, that looks cool...

I agree, so WOTC has a slump sure I can see that, its evident from the FLGS selection of 4e books but take someone like Burning Wheel who you used to have to ask a FLGS if they had it and most had not even heard of it, now I can even find it at the Barns and Nobles (Ok ive only seen mouse guard but its the same company that does burning wheel). Just because the big guy is hurting doesn't mean all games are. WW has a ton of books coming out to, they are releasing books in numbers I haven't seen since VTM was big. Granted the numbers may not be as high for Vampire but Changeling is doing way better than the old version ever did and the mortals line is doing far better than they ever dreamed it would.



I over heard those kids at the Red Robin a few weeks ago, granted they decided D&D sucked because combat was way to slow, but they were going to go try Savage Worlds because the guy at the shop had recommended it if they didn't like D&D.

Agreed. The art in the original core rulebook was disappointing. The artwork in SR4A in dynamite. I have no research to back this up, but I imagine there is a segment of the gaming market that makes a purchase decision by picking up the rulebook and leafing through it. In that brief time period the game needs to make a impression on the player and well balanced combat mechanics in an 80 page chapter is not going to do it. Most likely its going to be the artwork, and in SR's case the Sample Character section. I was very pleased to see many of the Sample Characters get an artwork overhaul.

Ok,

We have lost more than 2,000 game store retailers nationally out of about 5,500.
GDW at their peak was selling 100,000 units for a given product...these days 5,000 units is considered respectable for any third tier game company.
SR 3rd moved 300,000 units as compared to 100,000 units for 4th.

I made the 'crack' about WotC...by Xmass of this year I think they are going to be closed and simply an IP place holder.

But then again, PNP gaming led to the explosion of PC gaming. I think about the 80's and 90's were the high tide of table-top gaming. But the crop of gamers in the early 2000 pretty much grew up on some pretty sophisticated PC games (as opposed to pitfall, pac-man and street fighter, space invaders anyone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). What I do find PC wise is an incredible lack of turn based PC games. I

'll echo this about PNP-it is more social. PNP has an infinite degrees of freedom as opposed to the linear or tree type plots in MMORPs and other PC games

Just look at all the layoffs and companies that have gone under in just the last two years!

Actually, my wife is 44, but you didn't hear it from me.

I think your numbers are off, there. We have had in Seattle Area 1 shop close and 4 open that I know of within the last year alone (yeah its pretty crazy the number of gaming stores we have). Though I think Amazon/pdf/print on demand not MMOs are eating into the stores.

The industries is probably in an "evolve or die" mode but all that means is the little guys do well and the giants either change the way they do business or loose business.

I'm not sure what that number means -- 300,000 units during its entire life? Because it was around longer than SR4 has been so far wasn't it?

I run an online game. Half are my age or older, half are new people (and younger).

Mark Simmons formerly of Games Quarterly Catalog, which published an industry catalog of all manufactures and distributors and then sent them out to game stores. So...I really doubt that their numbers were off.



3rd Edition went from 1998 to 2005, roughly 7 years with a total of 13 printings if I remember right.
However, in publishing your sales are front end loaded so you sell more books early on and then they trickle off as time passes. I do believe that the initial printings of SR 3rd were 30,000 to 35,000 but Fasa didn't do print runs of less than 25,000.

Maybe back in the 80's and early to mid-90s. Nowadays, I can't hardly buy anything "new" that I haven't looked up at least a half dozen reviews on. Its just too easy to get information these days.

So, if a half dozen reviews don't sell me on a game, then no matter how cool the artwork is, I'm not buying. I don't consider PnP games, or even console and PC games an impulse buy anymore.

thanks Malachi! I'm glad to hear someone quip up in defense of the younger PnPers, and it's great to hear that other people are willing to introduce multimedia elements and non-standard RPG storytelling techniques into their games, as well as to point out that the social aspect of PnP roleplaying is still alive and well and appreciated with a younger demographic.

makes me wonder what an SR game will be like when every player actually incidentally HAS an AR-capable mobile computing device (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *GM's wet dream*

I don't know the stats, but I can say I have one 20 yr old that games at my table. We met through his older brother who is my age.

Overall, I don't know how many young kids still roleplay per se. I don't think many kids roleplay at all to be honest. Malachi hit the nail on the head.

Why would kids roleplay when they can play XBox or WOW on the PC? The idea of using your imagination and spending your time with friends (face to face) seems to be a legacy 20th century concept.

At least it feels that way sometimes. Maybe I'm just getting old...

- J.

Thats a good point, also WOTC upped the ante on pretty with 3.0 for the big press rpgs. Indie game may have felt the pressure a bit to but you can still get away with little to no artwork in indie games.



What year? (curiosity, not saying your wrong) Because at leased in my small pod I'm not seeing it. Which means in some other small pod they are closing a lot of stores.

Artwork isn't nearly as expensive as it used to be. There are lots of talented starving artists who post samples on the internet and will do a really nice custom piece for $500. It's likely to be nobody you ever heard of who also lives in a different country, but paypal works for them too.

Tete,
That would have been 2007.

Overall...
I believe that the best rememdy for salvaging the game industry rests in the hands of the consumers. If you happen to be a personable individual and can run a killer game then I say go out and recruit people to play. Me...I am old and cranky...nobody listens to my sage advice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I've once found myself GMing in a con to a group of pre-teenagers. Hopefully, it was one of my few adventures that I could imagine GMing to such a crowd: except for the "you're criminals and you shoot people in the face" it didn't have any adult theme.
Overall it was a quite fun game (but I was happy it didn't last too long). I had to throw away realism, help them from time to time and show them there were other ways to solve problems than killing people, but they had a blast and I was reminded of my first games.

But even then I chose all the 'no' answers:
From what I've seen and heard, younger gamers aren't into P&P RPG in general. They aren't interested in reading a 200 pages book to be able to spend 4 hours to play a short story when they can switch a button and play a whole story in 2 hours. But they might get drawn into it from other games.
But the thing is that there had never been a time where people were into P&P RPG in general. It has always been a fringe market, and it'll probably stay that way.
I also think that cyberpunk isn't exactly something younger gamers are interested into: what was the last cyberpunk movie you've seen? Cyberpunk just isn't exactly part of popular culture, and even if some elements are still popular with the younger crowd (cyberarms! big guns!) I think that if they had to choose among the games, they might go for Shadowrun but rather for trolls with big guns thant for Cyberpunk.

Finally, I think that even if kids can have fun with Shadowrun, I think it's, especially now with 4th ed, a mature game designed for mature gamers. Not only because of the adult themes (sex, drugs and criminals PC who shoot people in the face for money) but also because of the overall complexity. Of course you can play "trolls with big guns go through the front door gun blazing" but I guess that there are better games out there for children.

Ergh. This is one of the things that bothers me. Hobby stores /= "the industry". Hobby stores are just that: hobby stores. They survive and thrive on their own merits.

Allow me to tangent briefly:

I think hobby stores are going the way of the rotary telephone. Anything they can do, the internet can do better.

Interested in a new game? Log onto rpg.net or browse the many different gaming blogs that are out there. You'll even find ones you've probably never heard of (which is how the indie scene is getting more attention).

Looking for people to discuss your favorite game with? Go to a forum or blog roll.

Looking for a group? Between forums, online people matchers, Myspace and Facebook, it's easy to find people with the same interest. There's also IRC, Maptools, or play-by-post games.

And the biggie, purchasing new material. How awesome is it that we live in a time where the devs can put up an announcement about releasing a new book and five minutes later (give or take haggling with the SO), it's sitting on my desktop waiting to be read? Between companies own .pdf sales and websites like rpgnow, you can have new or old material delivered to you at broadband speed. Truly, the future.

If you're one of those types that wants hardcover books (they do look sweeter on the shelf, I'll admit) there's still Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc, etc. It's not as fast as a pdf file, but it'll still get to your house in around a week give or take shipping.

Frankly, not having to deal with game stores any more would be a good thing. First off, not everyone has one in their area. I didn't - I've got a comic book store about fifteen minutes from my house that sells some mini games and the latest from WotC and White Wolf. The other couple stores are either an hour south in Boston or an hour and a half north in New Hampshire. That's not good for impulse browsing. Plus, you don't have to deal with (and stop me if I'm repeating myself here) dark, dirty stores, inattentive or annoyed staff, customers making rude forwards to your significant other, gaming groups down in the common area being loud and inappropriate while you're trying to shop...yeah, I'm just not a fan of the places and I'm not going to be sad to see them go.



GDW also has a lot more competion than it used to have, from Privateer Press and pre-painted / plastic games. Not surprising that their sales would drop.



As someone else said - what am I supposed to infer from these numbers? Is this at first release? Or over the course of the gameline? Since 4e hasn't ceased and 5e come out...


And you haven't given me any numbers to justify this prediction. You've thrown around some empty numbers and said, "there you go."

Hobby stores are not an accurate reader of the "health" of the industry. What we need is the actual sales sold. It's kind of a pity that unlike the video game industry, we don't have companies releasing sales numbers each month (like the NPD).

As WotC is releasing at least a book a month, has only had one major layoff within the last year (and, IIRC, they were people involved with the Virtual Table project and a few developers that were probably aching to leave, since they were from the 3.* era) and has had PHB and DMG and PHB2 on the Wall Street Journal best seller list, I don't think they're going to suddenly become nothing more than an IP holder.

Now, WotC doesn't share its actual sales figures, granted. Neither do a whole lot of companies. But given that we're in a slack economy right now and that between work and commitments free time is at an all time low, it's no wonder that the hobby looks like hell. Give it time. Go out and start running Your Favorite Game for a group of newbies and try to get them into the hobby. That's the best way to prevent the "graying" of the hobby, not running around yelling that the sky is falling.

Edit: how bloody annoying that it takes me an extra ten minutes to post this because I can't find the "missing quote tag". Bloody forum software!

Ravensmuse,

Your tone has taken on a decidedly harsher edge and I think that this might be a good point for me to step back from the discussion rather than dig at what seems to be a raw nerve.