A decent space traveling vehicle cost about as much as a Thunderbird with enviroseal (yea expensive). I also removed the maximum speed once you get outside the atmosphere (yes the scientific minded on this board are probably ready to string me up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). I also kinda fudged a bit on the technological side and made artificial gravity generation possible. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_gravity) I used the entry (Gravity generator/gravitomagnetism) as a basis. Most stations with a permanent population use rotation as a means of gravity though.

Those THree have written a Novel that deals with something like that, actually.
In germany, the Title is "Gefallene Engel", i don't know if i can find the english title
Edit: Seems to be FALLEN ANGELS.

I didn't like Harlequin's back for the same reasons as OP. Too railroady, and I have a pet hate for modules with a big, powerful NPC who can save the day if required. And I also hate "fudging" dice. So those two things combined put me off it, and in fact I think my group didn't end up finishing that one. Still it doesn't take too much effort to rejigg it a little. But my point is, not a well designed module for me.

I have to agree, you try to draw down on a 10,000 year old immortal (from either the front or back) and you draw back a stump.
You don't get past the millennium mark by leaving things to chance.

Mega plots didn't bother me if it they are sensible.

Some things are so big that they can't be stopped. You have to pick sides and can try to make a difference in the outcome in your corner of the world.

H2 was a mixed bag (a little long perhaps) but it was also an astral quest. The pay off at the end was good.



But the sacrifice being rendered useless by the Dragon Hurt series... did hurt. If nothing else the Big H should have known what Mr Dark would do. He should have been going after Mr Dark by proxie (and bringing him to the attention of the other Immortals) or at least bringing in reinforcements so that Mr Dark couldn't over whelm them.

A small tie in (no names mentioned) in the final Dragon Heart series would have been nice.

I just didn't encourage my players to stay. They all had too much unfinished business. I did have one player who made the sacrifice but he wanted to start a new character.

I did take the opportunity to jump the campaign forward a year and let the players get a fresh start in a new city.

See, I consider that "dungeons and dragons thinking". It hearkens back to the days of 150 hitpoints and being able to chest-block ballista shots if you were high enough level. It's like you want to make it like level 1 characters can't pwn level 36 characters.

But Shadowrun is more realistic in that anyone can get lucky and take out a consumate warrior. It may not be likely but it is possible. Think about how different the world would be if heroic men and women (eg. cops and soldiers) couldn't be killed by Homeric spear-carriers (eg. 15 year old gangbangers and nihilistic suicide bombers).

If I wanted Celtic women to teabag me with an odd combination of magic powers and 20th century postmodern feminism I'd go hit on aggressive college chicks of Irish descent. If I wanted to play what Shadowrun UNIQUELY offers, a modern gritty morally ambiguous setting where heroes die and luck and error wreaks havoc upon the best laid plans, I sure has heck wouldn't sit through a session of Harlequin's back.

Yeah, sounds like a pretty sucky adventure - the unholy trifecta of super-GMPCs, blatant railroading, and encouraging the GM to cheat. And some sanctimonious moralizing in there, too? Wow.

But I agree on the immortal elves. They should have a high degree of initiation, some unique metamagics, some powerful foci and spirits, yeah. Power-wise, they should be a bit beyond what the PCs are capable of. But they should be long-lived by working from behind the scenes, having sensible security precautions, and knowing when to run away really quickly. They shouldn't be able to no-sell everything tossed at them and laugh at missiles.

You ever read the Thieves' World series? They had a near-immortal badass in their named Tempus, but even he found himself in trouble once - simply from some punk with a slingshot, who didn't give a damn about what a badass he was supposed to be. He talked his way out of that, but still, he was a moment away from having a new hole drilled in his forehead. Badass or not, he was still in a world where a punk could potentially get lucky and take him out. That's the kind of SR I like to play.

So out of curiosity, what happens if the PCs decide to kill Harley when he's unconscious, or when they find him chained up being tortured?

By the logic of the adventure? Doesn't matter, he thought of that or has a plan for that, or you will never do so because he's just that much better than you. It doesn't matter what you do, he will out-think or out-do you. He's pretty much the perfect GMPC -- he can 'slap down' or 'punish' any player.

Silly, but how it's worded.

That sounds like a good way to handle it O.o
I hope you gave that one guy horrible ammounts of Karma in his new character, because he had done something right in a prior life? ^^

There I disagree, vehemently. The essence of Shadowrun is, for me, that everyone can be killed. If an Immortal Elf gets into weapon range of a team of runners, he is just another dude. Powerful, probably, but not immortal anymore. Not leaving things to change means staying the heck away from meeting Shadowrunners, among a few other things.

Big baddies like Immortal Elves and Great Dragons should be practically unkillable, well-nigh unkillable, or even virtually unkillable...but not just plain old matter-of-fact unkillable. And what's more, their unkillability should come from the rules. If they're survivors because they're smart, the GM should play them that way. Don't just hand-wave it away by rolling a handful of dice, lying about the result, and insisting the player "pulls back a stump" or "gets bitched slapped." That's laziness on the GM's part, and -- when it's encouraged by a published adventure -- on the writer's part, as well.

If the players have to role play, cook up plans and contingencies, layer abilities and traps and schemes, and do things within their power -- by being smart -- in order to succeed, the GM (and by extension the NPCs) should be expected to do the same. Anything else is just sloppiness and poor form.


Nope, never heard of 'em. Especially not about any 'Tempus' yahoo or his Stepsons.

*whistles innocently*

The main problem, I and other like-minded folks have is that Immortal does not equal Invincible.
Tough, maybe. Prepared, definitely. Not invincible. Given enough preperation, secrecy, and luck it should be possible, however unikely, to take down most anyone. Its the reprocussions that should stop you in your tracks.
The unwritten metaplot rules say "NO! Bad player. Go sit in the corner and make another character."

Take HB for example, instead of making Harley invincible just have the players fail the Astral Quest. The module even states that the GM decides if death on the quest is permanent or not. If you turned on Harley, you just earned a powerful enemy that knows alot about you and may have really messed things up for the world at large.

It always comes down to the GM I guess.

I believe I let him take his full earned Karma over to the new character for just that reason.


On invincible Immortal Elves, after a few thousand years they must be able to read the rest of us like an open book.

If someone was of the type that he or she couldn't be trusted then they never would have been invited along in the first place. You don't think that the big H wouldn't check with the spirits to see who he should bring along?

Or if they had to be there then the IE would take precautions (I wonder how good at magically assisted hypnosis you would get after a few thousand years).

The IE are the next best things to a Greater Dragon.

Now if the players run in to a greater dragon and they left their brief case nuke at home, then they are not going to realistically be able to kill it. Hurt it yes, but kill it... No. Which would then eventually be very very bad for the PCs, as the GD or IE made an example out of them.

Is the greater dragon or IE totally invincible.... No, not if they have the right tools and an opportunity to use them.

If the players could get a briefcase nuke or a Thor strike and prevent the quicken super extended detect bomb spell from warning the target off, I would give them a chance to blow either one to kingdom come.

Which if they were acting independently, I admit would then eventually be very very bad for the PCs, as the other IEs or GDs would then make an example out of them for the bragging rights if nothing else. "You killed my master... Now justice will be done"

Finally, I just have to agree with FASA that if they stat it, then they will be killed and some things should not be able to be killed out of hand. Who want to hear some munchkin talking about how their Troll Tank cyber zombie killed the big H.

If an IE or a GD goes down then it should be as part of an Epic campaign.

I am so glad I don't play with GMs who get off on GD and IE worship.

(double post)

Who cares? If it was fun for him, the other players, and the GM, why does it matter?

Not if that IE or GD is being run as an idiot. Being an IE or GD isn't an automatic "I win every fight" button. They've got fantastic magical powers and amazing intelligence and foresight -- but they should have to use those in order to be formidable opponents, they shouldn't just walk around being invincible simply by virtue of who they are.

If Harlequin's summoned you for help and is standing there chatting with you, and the super-Wired sammy wants to go for his pistol and try to take a shot...well, why shouldn't he be able to out-fastdraw Harlequin?

I'm not saying he can, please keep in mind and reread that sentence. I'm saying "why shouldn't he?" Stat it up. Think it through. What defenses is Harlequin using, and how, and does he always have them? Stat it up. Play within the rules of the game you've all agreed to play within, and figure out a way to make it work. Take some time as a GM (or as the writer of an adventure) and make things fit and work within the rules of the game.

If it's a Quickened Armor spell linked to trigger from a Quickened Sense Enemies spell, or whatever...fine. Just stat it up (even if their Forces are in the double digits), and play by the same rules everyone else has to. Don't just say "LOLOL you go for your gun and die LOLOLOL." Make it fit. Make it fun for everyone, not just you.

I did just that when I ran the campaign. I took the suggested magical stats of Ghostwalker as a basis.
Harley had some ext. masked quickened spells at Force 24 with 24 hits.

Deflection/Combat Sense/Armor/Pers. Mana Barrier/Pers. Physical Barrier

Some Anchored spells if real trouble happened. Pretty hardcore to take out, but not impossible.
----
Never needed his stats during HB. Harley actually does practically nothing during that campaign. It's the PC's that do the work.
Besides, the PC's that stay behind are absolved of their task by the Powers That Be. It was just a test to see if they had the guts to make the sacrifice.

Yes IE and GD can be killed... the question is how many GM can play an IE or GD with the kind of realistic foresight and planning that one would require in order to role play them properly and still have time to do everything else? There are some great GM's out there that can, but there is a lot more that aren't that interested trying to out think everything their players can do. The latter is who the short cuts are for.

It's far easier to play the uber-NPCs as being infallible if they never appear in front of the runners and therefore never get tested.

No GM can outthink Players. EVER.
Players do dumb stupid suicidal things that no GM would ever expect.
And they get along, mostly by sheer dumb luck.
Player:"Huh? that actually worked?"
GM:"What do you mean?"
Player:"I only wanted to see what would happen, i did not think it would work or anything"
GM:"§$%&!!!!"

There is a major difference between worshiping GD and IE and making sure they get the respect they deserve.

A GM can never fully predict what a group of players will do. That is what makes it fun.

And since it is a total moving target to match the NPC power level to the PC's power level, I'd rather they give me more information on the adventure than a set of stats for the Big H that I'd have to change any way.

I'd classify your idea of what's deserved as worshipping, so I see no difference.

I much rather hear that than to hear about yet another group that got railroaded through the fucking adventure by an untouchable godling.


I do not think these stats mean what you think they mean.

I liked the adventure as background but not sure I or my players would like to run it.

Wow, that would be really hard for the GM to bullshit out of.

GM: "Harley goes down frothing because he got tentacl'd. It looks like he needs emergency medical care!"

Player: "OK, I grab my medkit in my left hand while still holding my Warhawk in my right, run over to him...and put a round in that santimonious asshole's forehead!"

GM: "He, uh, was faking? And, uh, beats your initiative and hits you with a force 40 D manabolt using his eyes?"


Or,

GM: "When you get back it seems like the bad guys are swarming everywhere and Harlequin is unconscious hanging upside down from a torture board and his body is covered with weals and cuts."

Player: "Finally, that goddamn sanctimonioius bastard isn't in the position to hit me with his eyebeams when I try to take him out. I run up to him, put my Predator against his temple, and pull the trigger."

GM: "He, uh, uses his prehensile wang, which is actually the size of a baseball bat, to hit you as you get close for 40 D damage."

ROFL.

- J.