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The Jake
post Jul 14 2009, 07:24 AM
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Oh my god.. if I could buy a product to solve this problem, I'd be willing to spend a couple of hundred at least to make it go away.

Seriously, this is like my BIGGEST gripe with my group.

They are so overly paranoid and take forever I've realised that if I give them too much time, they will take it. So I am using all sorts of tactics to keep it moving. At the moment, I am a fan of using missions with strict time parameters for completion which force them to improvise on the fly, or change the mission parameters on them at the last minute.

Its been so bad at times, I've even just been blatantly rude and told them we're moving on and if you haven't work it out in time, stiff shit. I have two players at least who don't make decisions quickly get burned by this but seriously, I just have to stop caring. I'm really trying to coach them to move a bit quicker but it is a real hard act when a game like Shadowrun is effectively 90% prep, 10% action.

Whoever discussed those ratios is dead on the money. It comes down to how the GM sees it but even if the GM wants to change it, there's only so many times your PCs can handle jobs like that. Unless they build a solid reputation as "problem solvers" and their fixers just keep heaping difficult job after difficult job on them because of it.

- J.
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Cardul
post Jul 14 2009, 11:20 AM
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Players taking 45 minutes of IN CHARACTER ARGUMENT! to open a door? What? You mean you d not run it "If you say it at the table, you say it in character"? I have found that that stops a whole CRAP load of stupidity....Of course, when a discussion gets like that, I start counting time...45 minutes outside that door? So, those guards have called in reinforcements, and the Troll with the Assault Cannon and Radar Eye Implants from the HTRT is starting to get bored....and thus, I, as teh GM, ask "So..who is infront of the door?" whoever responds first, I say "Surprise!" as I roll the dice..and say "Soak X damage...the guards got tired of waiting..."
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crizh
post Jul 14 2009, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (The Jake @ Jul 14 2009, 08:24 AM) *
They are so overly paranoid



You need to speak to them about it and suggest that these minor details can be hand-waved. If they can trust you that you are not going to crap all over them because they forgot to cover some base in the plan of attack then you can just gloss over much of the prep.

You can abstract B&E with a single extended test against a Threshold you think represents suitable security. If you want to add some sort of additional extra surprise you have to stop when they encounter it and give them the opportunity to overcome it.

If failing to plan every tiny little detail leads to potential character death then they will plan every single tiny microscopic detail.
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Mr. Mage
post Jul 14 2009, 01:45 PM
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QUOTE (Cardul @ Jul 14 2009, 07:20 AM) *
Players taking 45 minutes of IN CHARACTER ARGUMENT! to open a door? What? You mean you d not run it "If you say it at the table, you say it in character"? I have found that that stops a whole CRAP load of stupidity....Of course, when a discussion gets like that, I start counting time...45 minutes outside that door? So, those guards have called in reinforcements, and the Troll with the Assault Cannon and Radar Eye Implants from the HTRT is starting to get bored....and thus, I, as teh GM, ask "So..who is infront of the door?" whoever responds first, I say "Surprise!" as I roll the dice..and say "Soak X damage...the guards got tired of waiting..."


I love that! Perfect! Bravo! Good Show! Hoorah!

My favorite tactic is to give thema time limit in game, to stop all of the unnecessary planing.
"You have until midnight tonight to finish this assignment. Get to it!"
If they start making exessive plans, I continually remind them that there isn't enough time to be doing that in game, so they make a shorter, simpler one, shich usually works out better than the original one because it's less rigid and thus, more adaptable.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 14 2009, 05:27 PM
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Well, usually I am the Troll with the PAC that gets bored ^^
And i think that's much more intimidating than one of the NPC's *snickers*
You need one such player in your Group. Someone who wants to have FUN.
Who wants to be Rambo or Terminator or something like that.
One of the people who does not care about bad form. "Bite me, just do it!"
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InfinityzeN
post Jul 14 2009, 05:31 PM
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Seriously man, just do what I do. If the PCs stop and start arguing like that then start shooting at them. Hell, the guards know where their loud unprofessional arses are. Nothing tells the PCs that the GM loves them like large volumes of full automatic gunfire.
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Riki
post Jul 14 2009, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Cardul @ Jul 14 2009, 03:20 AM) *
Players taking 45 minutes of IN CHARACTER ARGUMENT! to open a door? What? You mean you d not run it "If you say it at the table, you say it in character"? I have found that that stops a whole CRAP load of stupidity....Of course, when a discussion gets like that, I start counting time...45 minutes outside that door? So, those guards have called in reinforcements, and the Troll with the Assault Cannon and Radar Eye Implants from the HTRT is starting to get bored....and thus, I, as teh GM, ask "So..who is infront of the door?" whoever responds first, I say "Surprise!" as I roll the dice..and say "Soak X damage...the guards got tired of waiting..."



QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jul 14 2009, 09:31 AM) *
Seriously man, just do what I do. If the PCs stop and start arguing like that then start shooting at them. Hell, the guards know where their loud unprofessional arses are. Nothing tells the PCs that the GM loves them like large volumes of full automatic gunfire.


I like both of these equally, anything they are discussing thats not real life related forces them to be real with their timing and planning tho it doesnt stop their night before mission planning cause those can take forever anyway. And having a Random encounter if they take to long is nice to it distracts them from their planning, although it doesnt always put them back on track
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Suriyel
post Jul 14 2009, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (crizh @ Jul 14 2009, 02:36 PM) *
...

If failing to plan every tiny little detail leads to potential character death then they will plan every single tiny microscopic detail.


Also keep in mind that this behavior may have been caused by a previous GM and is not necessarily a result of your actions as a GM. If this is the case, it is your responsibility as a GM to either live with it or to try to convince them that they can start to gloss over some small details without you instantly killing them for it.

If you've ever said "Aha! You fool! You didn't specify when checking for traps that you were specifically checking if pressing in the door handle while turning it clockwise while standing only on these specific tiles did anything! You die a horrible death! Muahahahaha!" You might be the problem. If you've heard that, you probably have a problem.

I've discovered that if the players believe the GM won't arbitrarily kill them over some little detail they'll start purposefully coming up with their own inventive ways of putting themselves in danger.
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crizh
post Jul 14 2009, 07:33 PM
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Here's in idea out of left field that just came to me.

Instead of starting a session with meeting Mr J finish a session with it.

Finish a run, award karma and then jump forward to the start of the next job.

That will give you at least a week out of game for them to scheme and plot, send you e-mail about leg-work etc.

Then you can get a flying start at the next session.
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HappyDaze
post Jul 14 2009, 10:41 PM
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Just had some of this glacially slow play in my game last night. The characters were hired to recover some cargo that Haida pirates had taken off a ship near Prince Rupert (in my game the Tsimshian coastline is the Sixth World equivalent to IRL Somalia). We had the following issuess:

Do we take a plane or a boat to get there?
Can anyone operate a plane/boat?
Do we know anyone else that can?
Should we rent or steal the plane/boat?
I'll need a disposable fake SIN for this - how much/how long will it take to get it?
Is this false SIN good enough to rent with?
No - OK, let's steal it. Here's the plan... <<<GM cuts them off and tells them that they are successful at stealing a chartered fishing boat to save time.>>>
How are we getting back if the plane/boat is fragged? <<<Oddly, no one ever addressed this.>>>
"I have aeronautic engineering and he has demolitions - how long would it take us to build some rockets?"<<<GM's eyes glazing over here>>>
"I want to purchase..." <<<GOTO Availability minigame.>>>
"Oh yeah, me too..." <<<GOTO Availability minigame... again>>>
"And..." <<<GOTO Availability minigame... one more fucking time>>>

NOTE: No one really bothered to get any intel on the opposition. One character picked up a bit passively from her eco-background knowledge skills, but they didn't really do squat for legwork despite being handed a direct lead from the guy that gave them the job. I almost felt bad when they got blindsided by the Sludge Spirit the pirates used as their vanguard. Almost.
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crizh
post Jul 14 2009, 11:15 PM
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Availability is a pain in the arse.

It's designed to keep players from picking up gear that will ruin the run in a couple of minutes but it more often prevents them from picking up vital gear they didn't know they were going to need until they heard what the run was.

Some bits of gear take weeks to acquire. Nothing that has an availability takes less than 6 hours..
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RedeemerofOgar
post Jul 16 2009, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jul 14 2009, 12:31 PM) *
Seriously man, just do what I do. If the PCs stop and start arguing like that then start shooting at them. Hell, the guards know where their loud unprofessional arses are. Nothing tells the PCs that the GM loves them like large volumes of full automatic gunfire.


In D&D, our GM came up with the hilarious option of having one of the guards on the other side of the door holler "We can hear you, you know!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It has become a running joke, but it has also helped discourag the "ok we're here, now what should the plan be" style of gaming they were starting to fall into.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 16 2009, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE
Players taking 45 minutes of IN CHARACTER ARGUMENT! to open a door?

i distinctly remember there being an occassion where a GM had the complete group roll to do something as simple as that . .
and somehow, we all failed again and again . .
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Traul
post Jul 16 2009, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 16 2009, 11:41 PM) *
i distinctly remember there being an occassion where a GM had the complete group roll to do something as simple as that . .
and somehow, we all failed again and again . .

It once took us 15 minutes to realize we were pushing the door instead of pulling it... This guy never got to GM again.
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LynGrey
post Jul 16 2009, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (crizh @ Jul 13 2009, 04:27 PM) *
My DnD group are a lot like that.

Which explains why the Cleric was level drained two levels and after three years I'm the only one that still has the same character....


I was in a length DnD campign over the course of a few months, slow paced game but still really good. Same thing with me i was the only one to lose exp, or get killed... And i wasn't even build a "power build" Just an elven finesse fighter really, the only time i was geeked.. when the DM said "you're going to die," and targeted me.. tried to kill me, and i almost made it out alive.

Most games slow down usally cause a lack of rules + a lack of knowledge of your character concept. People make a character, and don't play it the way they build it or can't build it the way they want to play it. Which is a valueable lesson GURPS has taught me, use a week or so to TALK with the players here and there about concepts, game idea/style, and spend a WHOLE session creating characters with them AS a group. I'm a switch hitter, I'll play anytime of character in any game and make it work. I tend to deal with the "simple" fightery/playmaker types, I'm not the one that shines with brightness but i'll make the party much more cohesive and better with me around.

Its all about player education, as a GM is your job to make the game fun and entertaining for all the players.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 16 2009, 10:35 PM
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QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 17 2009, 12:10 AM) *
It once took us 15 minutes to realize we were pushing the door instead of pulling it... This guy never got to GM again.

Well, it was a light-switch that we needed to push . . mind you, it was rolling and rolling again AFTER having found it . .
Nope, i won't be playing with that one again either . .
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The Jake
post Jul 16 2009, 10:45 PM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 14 2009, 10:41 PM) *
Just had some of this glacially slow play in my game last night. The characters were hired to recover some cargo that Haida pirates had taken off a ship near Prince Rupert (in my game the Tsimshian coastline is the Sixth World equivalent to IRL Somalia). We had the following issuess:

Do we take a plane or a boat to get there?
Can anyone operate a plane/boat?
Do we know anyone else that can?
Should we rent or steal the plane/boat?
I'll need a disposable fake SIN for this - how much/how long will it take to get it?
Is this false SIN good enough to rent with?
No - OK, let's steal it. Here's the plan... <<<GM cuts them off and tells them that they are successful at stealing a chartered fishing boat to save time.>>>
How are we getting back if the plane/boat is fragged? <<<Oddly, no one ever addressed this.>>>
"I have aeronautic engineering and he has demolitions - how long would it take us to build some rockets?"<<<GM's eyes glazing over here>>>
"I want to purchase..." <<<GOTO Availability minigame.>>>
"Oh yeah, me too..." <<<GOTO Availability minigame... again>>>
"And..." <<<GOTO Availability minigame... one more fucking time>>>

NOTE: No one really bothered to get any intel on the opposition. One character picked up a bit passively from her eco-background knowledge skills, but they didn't really do squat for legwork despite being handed a direct lead from the guy that gave them the job. I almost felt bad when they got blindsided by the Sludge Spirit the pirates used as their vanguard. Almost.



My entire last session degenerated rapidly into a Availability minigame. Sigh.

One player who was absent wanted to know what happened so I told him. He was about to ask if he could do some shopping next session to prepare. I just said no, because otherwise everyone would want to.

- J.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 16 2009, 10:48 PM
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Just tell them to tell you what they want, do some rolls that look convincing enough and tell them if they get it next time?
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Fastball
post Jul 17 2009, 12:55 AM
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Here's a couple of solutions for when players take too long in the planning stages prior to the run (using a "retrieve the package" run):


#1: After days of creating the perfect plan, everything on the run goes smoothly, too smoothly. After the players breach the poorly-guarded area, they are unable to find the requested package. A quick database run reveals that the package was moved to a more secure floor or to a new facility. Now the players need a new plan quick, because the run deadline is still tomorrow...

#2: As the players are in a heated argument, the phone rings. Hi, this is Johnson. I just learned another party is interested, and I'm moving the deadline to tonight. Get it done and I'll double your award.
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Traul
post Jul 17 2009, 01:49 AM
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I think you got it wrong. The problem is not the time in game, but the time around the table.
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HappyDaze
post Jul 17 2009, 01:55 AM
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Absolutely. Shadowrun can make a 2 hour in-game planning session take a 4 hour gaming session IRL. Then the Legwork and Availability mini-games have to be added in, and we can have several hours of time spent getting ready for a run. If you avoid the mini-gams and roleplay the situations, it will usually take even more IRL time.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jul 17 2009, 02:34 AM
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I think it really comes down to convincing people that you wont burn them for not planning things perfectly.

Every time a GM says this happened to you because you forgot X, you get a slower player.
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Maelstrome
post Jul 17 2009, 02:38 AM
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herein lies the problem, they never plan BEFORE the run. and when they get into it they argue about what actions to take.
its the table time not in game time.

edit
on another note. the game which the gm and i are trying to spur the team in the right direction will begin in an hour.
depending on how it goes i might post a copy of the game here.
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Octopiii
post Jul 17 2009, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 16 2009, 06:55 PM) *
Absolutely. Shadowrun can make a 2 hour in-game planning session take a 4 hour gaming session IRL. Then the Legwork and Availability mini-games have to be added in, and we can have several hours of time spent getting ready for a run. If you avoid the mini-gams and roleplay the situations, it will usually take even more IRL time.


The best way to cut short the availability game is to look at what contact they are going through, and if that person should have access to that stuff. High availability? Add extra time (defrayable if the PCs grease the wheels) or just say no. Sure, it standardizes things a bit much and makes it less realistic, but the whole game is a process of representation not simulation.

Legwork can be a bitch, though. I personally skipped talking to Ricecakes because A: we took fricken forever to decide on a boat to begin with; B: Hamburger does not plan; C. He didn't want to deal with yet another syndicate if he could help it; D: Half the fun is wacky twists! and E: Our plans never work out right anyway.
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wylie
post Jul 17 2009, 03:17 AM
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hey, i had a group "discuss" for 15 minutes on how to leave a club

setup:
the 2 PCs in the club were elves
only elves & elf posers went to the club
6 koreans gunned down by the rest of the team in about 3 seconds flat
the elf mage covered the sounds of gunfire
no one in the club was wiser, other then the bouncer who hid at the 1st burst
......
...........
................
15 minutes of discussing on how to leave the club IRL
the elven PCs were worried they would be IDed for leaving a club full of elves
think they finally slipped out the back
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