Sleep and you. Fatigue |
Sleep and you. Fatigue |
Jul 17 2009, 11:51 AM
Post
#1
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 |
Longhaul lets you stay away for 4 days where after you fall asleep for 8 - 48 hours. The sleep regulator lets you stay up for 48 hours with only 3 hours of sleep (if I've read and understand the text correctly). During the 48 hours of the regulator, or the 96 hours for longhaul, you don't accrue any fatigue or weariness penalties.
So I've been reading through SR4 trying to glean the penalties for not getting enough sleep. The only reference to the effects of fatigue I've seen to fatigue is in relation to running. Nothing else. Can anyone clue me into the penalties? |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 12:06 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Longhaul lets you stay away for 4 days where after you fall asleep for 8 - 48 hours. The sleep regulator lets you stay up for 48 hours with only 3 hours of sleep (if I've read and understand the text correctly). During the 48 hours of the regulator, or the 96 hours for longhaul, you don't accrue any fatigue or weariness penalties. So I've been reading through SR4 trying to glean the penalties for not getting enough sleep. The only reference to the effects of fatigue I've seen to fatigue is in relation to running. Nothing else. Can anyone clue me into the penalties? Sleep Deprivation is handled with the toxin rules. Its in SR4A on page. 256. This is also included in the SR4A changes document available at http://shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4a/sr4a_changes.pdf. The description covers Sleep Regulators and drugs such as Longhaul. Peace, K. |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 12:06 PM
Post
#3
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Longhaul lets you stay away for 4 days where after you fall asleep for 8 - 48 hours. The sleep regulator lets you stay up for 48 hours with only 3 hours of sleep (if I've read and understand the text correctly). During the 48 hours of the regulator, or the 96 hours for longhaul, you don't accrue any fatigue or weariness penalties. So I've been reading through SR4 trying to glean the penalties for not getting enough sleep. The only reference to the effects of fatigue I've seen to fatigue is in relation to running. Nothing else. Can anyone clue me into the penalties? Check SR4A. Don't ask me how that is supposed to interact with perfectly integrated Endure but mostly that's Endure's own fault. |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 12:30 PM
Post
#4
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 |
Sleep Deprivation is handled with the toxin rules. Its in SR4A on page. 256. This is also included in the SR4A changes document available at http://shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4a/sr4a_changes.pdf. The description covers Sleep Regulators and drugs such as Longhaul. Peace, K. Wow, so basically there were no rules regarding fatigue from a lack of rest in SR4. Unfortunately the sleep deprivation only talks about how long you can go without sleep (24 hours naturally). The second half of my question, which I forgot to ask, is how many hours of sleep would be required per night? I'm guessing it's either 6 or 8. Likewise, how would you rule on getting partial sleep? If the default is 8 hours of a sleep and you can stay up for 24 hours, but you only get 6 hours of sleep, would that mean that you would be able to only stay up for say 18 hours before you have to worry about the fatigue effects? Basically, if you got 75% of the required sleep, you could only stay up for 75% of your normal waking time before suffering from fatigue? Example: 6 hours of sleep required per night, w/o sleep regulator: 1 hr sleep = 4 hours of wakefulness without fatigue penalties (max 24 hours awake without penalty) 8 hours of sleep required per night, w/o sleep regulator: 1 hr sleep = 3 hours of wakefulness without fatigue penalties (max 24 hours awake without penalty) 3 hours of sleep required per night, with sleep regulator: 1 hr sleep = 16 hours of wakefulness without fatigue penalties (max 48 hours awake without penalty) I'm debating the value of having a sleep regulator. Mostly due to the fact that when it comes to recon, my character may in many cases be working solo while performing recon, and I have no idea how long he may have to be on any recon prior to a run occurring. As a possible positive note, whenever in shared living quarters with the other runners, I could always fall asleep after them and wake up before them, and they would never see me sleeping.... On a side note, supposedly in SR4A the rules for healing with the first aid skill have been altered. I've seen no SR4 errata, or anything in the SR4A errata that would indicate any changes to the first aid skill. The change that I had been told is that the rating of your medkit can be substituted for amount of damage healed instead of using your first aid skill to determine it. |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 01:19 PM
Post
#5
|
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Wow, so basically there were no rules regarding fatigue from a lack of rest in SR4. Unfortunately the sleep deprivation only talks about how long you can go without sleep (24 hours naturally). The second half of my question, which I forgot to ask, is how many hours of sleep would be required per night? I'm guessing it's either 6 or 8. I'm not sure what you mean by "no rules" unless you mean that there are no rules in SR4 as opposed to SR4A. These are not separate versions of the game. All the rules updates in the document I linked to apply to "SR4". The only reason for calling it SR4A is as a shorthand for post-errata SR4. As regards how much sleep is required, I would for the sake of argument go with the power given, which would mean a minimum of 6 hours. For handling less than the minimum sleep, the rules say that you continue to suffer the stun damage and that Power continues to increase. The rules are pretty generous as is, imo, so I wouldn't have much of a problem sticking to RAW and not allowing people to heal the stun damage until they get a proper amount of rest. If the GM wants to be merciful, then she could allow you to "catch up" on sleep, so getting four hours means you only need to get another two a bit later in order to be fully rested. You need to query this with your GM ultimately, both to see how your GM will handle it and whether its likely to come up. Hope this helps, K. |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 01:39 PM
Post
#6
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 |
I'm not sure what you mean by "no rules" unless you mean that there are no rules in SR4 as opposed to SR4A. These are not separate versions of the game. All the rules updates in the document I linked to apply to "SR4". The only reason for calling it SR4A is as a shorthand for post-errata SR4. SR4A indicates a specific book which is basically SR4 + SR4 errata + specific changes added in SR4A that were not in any previous errata. Sleep deprivation is something entirely new that was released with SR4A. Meaning that prior to the SR4A errata was shown, or copies available, there was no rules regarding a lack of sleep. That is shortsighted when there are at least a drug and augmentation, if not magic, in SR4 that modified the sleep rules which were never presented. That's over a year and a half between SR4's publication and any of the early errata for SR4A to get any sort of rules regarding sleep. |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 02:22 PM
Post
#7
|
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
SR4A indicates a specific book which is basically SR4 + SR4 errata + specific changes added in SR4A that were not in any previous errata. Sleep deprivation is something entirely new that was released with SR4A. Meaning that prior to the SR4A errata was shown, or copies available, there was no rules regarding a lack of sleep. That is shortsighted when there are at least a drug and augmentation, if not magic, in SR4 that modified the sleep rules which were never presented. That's over a year and a half between SR4's publication and any of the early errata for SR4A to get any sort of rules regarding sleep. Well it's fixed now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 02:59 PM
Post
#8
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 10-May 09 Member No.: 17,158 |
Well it's fixed now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And I can sleep quite well knowing this. |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 04:07 PM
Post
#9
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
It's sorta like Alpha Omega. Items have hit point tracks just like players (though the only one you keep track of normally is your armor) and it has a difficulty to repair, based on damage [points taken * repair mod] which basically means that most items become impossible to repair by mortals before they are a third damaged (heavy armor--maxes out at ~120 repair difficulty, your average human is rolling 6d6 summed) or are crazy simple, even when almost broke (laser guns?!? which have all of 8-10 HP and a repair mod of 2, vs. a club at 30 HP and a mod of 1).
Then there's a repair kit that offers +3 to the roll made to repair an item. But there is no repair skill nor associated attribute. There is however a spell for repairing items, but that has its own rules (it's in fact just as easy to repair a person as it is to repair items with magic). |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 04:33 PM
Post
#10
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: 17-April 09 Member No.: 17,088 |
The Armorer skill is used for building/repairing weapons and armor, the linked attribute is Logic.
|
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 05:06 PM
Post
#11
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
The Armorer skill is used for building/repairing weapons and armor, the linked attribute is Logic. ...In ShadowRun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In Alpha Omega there is no "armorer" skill. |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 05:51 PM
Post
#12
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 503 Joined: 3-May 08 Member No.: 15,949 |
Likewise, how would you rule on getting partial sleep? If the default is 8 hours of a sleep and you can stay up for 24 hours, but you only get 6 hours of sleep, would that mean that you would be able to only stay up for say 18 hours before you have to worry about the fatigue effects? Basically, if you got 75% of the required sleep, you could only stay up for 75% of your normal waking time before suffering from fatigue? I'm going to support this from personal experience. 4 hours of sleep leaves me a bit groggy from the afternoon onward, easily dealt with by taking a catnap. |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 06:03 PM
Post
#13
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,290 Joined: 23-January 07 From: Seattle, USA Member No.: 10,749 |
I've always required 6 hours of sleep for an adult human, which allows 24 hours of wakefulness.
8 hours of sleep is optimal, but not necessary for adults in my experience. |
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 06:21 PM
Post
#14
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 483 Joined: 16-September 08 From: Madison, WI Member No.: 16,349 |
|
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 06:38 PM
Post
#15
|
|
Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
|
|
|
Jul 17 2009, 07:25 PM
Post
#16
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 305 Joined: 15-January 08 From: Milwaukee, WI Member No.: 15,298 |
This is actually something that I was looking for just yesterday in my good ol' BBB. It seems that there were supposed to be rules for it in there, but they were left out or ended up on the cutting room floor. There's even a page reference back to the BBB for them in Street Magic, under the Crank spell, but it's an old-timey, 2nd edition style page reference that doesn't actually go anywhere.
|
|
|
Jul 18 2009, 03:34 AM
Post
#17
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 21-July 05 From: Seattle Member No.: 7,508 |
Yeah, the lack of Fatigue rules (but random references to them) drove me crazy. Then we needed them for an adventure - one of the Dawn of the Artifacts ones - and Bobby came up with the rules. When SR4A was being produced, I begged and pleaded to get them included in there, and shifting some stuff around enough space was made during the final layout. I'm quite pleased. There was much discussion amongst the freelancers on if you need 4, 6, or 8 hours of sleep to function. (As a parent, I merely laughed... sleep? what's that?)
|
|
|
Jul 18 2009, 03:50 AM
Post
#18
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 602 Joined: 2-December 07 From: The corner of Detonation Boulevard and Fascination Street Member No.: 14,464 |
Have to agree with you on that one,Tiger Eyes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
sleep is a rare and precious commodity once the little ones arrive. Can't remember when I had a full 8 hours sleep. ( accidently doubled up on paxil a few months ago and slept for about 6 hours before having to go to job #2. not sure if that counts though) Prime Mover has been using a fatigue system for our games, not sure what but it has cut down on the kamikaze usage abit so I guess its working.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) |
|
|
Jul 18 2009, 04:01 AM
Post
#19
|
|
Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
Medically speaking the average you always hear is 8, but it varies so greatly thats almost meaningless. Teens generally need more and adults need progressively less sleep in a single session the older they get (thats why your grandpa is up at 5 every morning). Then you have people (like doctors and soldiers) who are trained (tortured?) to function in sleep deprived states. Interestingly enough, JCAHO has guidelines that state that the maximum number of consecutive hours a doctor can be on shift in a hospital is 30, which is apparently based on studies that show that after thirty hours people start to make more critical mistakes.
So anyway the answer is there is no standard sleep length... |
|
|
Jul 18 2009, 05:26 AM
Post
#20
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 7-May 09 From: Sydney Member No.: 17,147 |
I've always required 6 hours of sleep for an adult human, which allows 24 hours of wakefulness. 8 hours of sleep is optimal, but not necessary for adults in my experience. Mostly depends on age, for young adults they definitely need to be getting 7-8 hours in a night to be comfortable, after about 30-35 you really don't need as much. For the last 6 days at work I've been running on about 4hrs a night for all kinds of crappy reasons, feeling fine and mentally alert. Not being shot at and running around probably helps, otherwise I'd like 6 then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
Jul 18 2009, 06:12 AM
Post
#21
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
Yeah, the lack of Fatigue rules (but random references to them) drove me crazy. Then we needed them for an adventure - one of the Dawn of the Artifacts ones - and Bobby came up with the rules. When SR4A was being produced, I begged and pleaded to get them included in there, and shifting some stuff around enough space was made during the final layout. I'm quite pleased. There was much discussion amongst the freelancers on if you need 4, 6, or 8 hours of sleep to function. (As a parent, I merely laughed... sleep? what's that?) As a parent myself, sleep is what you get when you're finally able to foist the child on the other parent. Unfortunately, there are some things that only a mother can do (breastfeeding.... that's about it, but it's important and has to happen fairly often). For the thread, my personal record was 73 hours without sleep, and I functioned fine through the first 60. Then I started declining, until I hit 71, and I felt like dieing. I also did a 58-ish session, where the worst part was the no-food for the first 34 hours. If I remember correctly, after about 100 hours you start falling asleep with your eyes open and carrying conversation, as your brain simply quits. And if you make it to something like 200+, you go permanently insane. On the other hand, there's something that's reffered to as "power napping," which Thomas Eddison and Benjamin Franklin were purported as doing, which involves 3 hours of sleep at night, and then every 2 hours you take a 15 minute nap. It allows for much more productive time, as you end up only getting like 5.5 hours of sleep, but you feel completely energized. My wife did this for a while, but ran out of things to do, so she stopped. Now my laundry hasn't been done in a week... Lately, I've been getting about 6 a night, and I feel slightly tired, but still functional. But I do have a 4 year old and I've been working ~48 hours a week for the last 4 years with only 4 weeks off (2 1/2 of those being unemployed - it's not the same), so being tired might just be due to something other than sleep deprivation. |
|
|
Jul 18 2009, 02:51 PM
Post
#22
|
|
Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
If I remember correctly, after about 100 hours you start falling asleep with your eyes open and carrying conversation, as your brain simply quits. And if you make it to something like 200+, you go permanently insane. It's called microsleep and can occur from any sleep deprived state, even run of the mill sleep apnea. I'm not too sure about that second part. QUOTE On the other hand, there's something that's reffered to as "power napping," which Thomas Eddison and Benjamin Franklin were purported as doing, which involves 3 hours of sleep at night, and then every 2 hours you take a 15 minute nap. Its also possible they were a little bit manic to begin with. |
|
|
Jul 18 2009, 03:00 PM
Post
#23
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 21-July 05 From: Seattle Member No.: 7,508 |
As a parent myself, sleep is what you get when you're finally able to foist the child on the other parent. Unfortunately, there are some things that only a mother can do (breastfeeding.... that's about it, but it's important and has to happen fairly often). Yes, I was introduced to sleep deprivation when my daughter nursed every two hours for the first year of her life. I decided then (well, later when my brain began to function) that sleep in increments does not count. |
|
|
Jul 18 2009, 03:07 PM
Post
#24
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
It's called microsleep and can occur from any sleep deprived state, even run of the mill sleep apnea. I'm not too sure about that second part. I read about a study on the matter back in Psychology class. The doctor that volunteered himself made it to like 214 hours, and is now permanently insane, barring the fact he may have died since. |
|
|
Jul 18 2009, 09:45 PM
Post
#25
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,894 Joined: 11-May 09 Member No.: 17,166 |
OK, gotta ask:
Is you have a sleep regulator AND have the adept power, does that leave you only at 48 hours (making it useless), 72 hours (each contributing an extra day), or 96 hours (doubled doubling)? I'm sure I am going to catch lots of FlaK over this, but I have to know. (For those who wonder, I intentionally typed FlaK the way I did, because I am cognizent of the original etymology of the word: derived from the WWII German abreviation for Flugabwehrkanone or Air Defense Cannon; It's one of those many things I'm "quirky" about. Learn something new - and generally useless - every day. *grin*) |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 4th January 2025 - 10:46 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.