While admittedly unfamiliar with SR canon, may I try one other route? What if they gain acceptance easier as long as there is no meatspace avatar aka android. To someone on the net, the idea that each of us have this kind of anonymity, thus even though I say I am a guy I could actually be a girl in meat space and so on, if you met an AI on the matrix, would you actually know you met one or just another matrix avatar? And if SiN are kinda like your name/identity expressed in numbers, doesn't that sound a bit like an AI?

My last idea is that the AIs, maybe even the TMs, are just the crazy results of the last crash, bits and pieces of the big AIs of the past, ghosts in the machine and all that. I mean, if you were an AI, you would try to store copies of yourself to survive right and achieve a sort of immortality (aka kids or clones or whatever), even if you had to parcel it up?

*shrug*

Still, I find my newbie self agreeing with Knasser it is a disappointing for drek hot hackers/crackers/programers when Neo or Micah (Heroes tv show) shows up, eh?

As far as it goes UV hosts only exist should someone decide to put them in, there are no confirmed UV hosts. This is precisely why I cannot stand the thought of these current AIs. This is the primary reason why I am opposed to these current AIs, but this is driven by the fact that I am employed in the computing industry and understand quite a bit about what has gone into developing synthetic intelligences.

Let's take one of the most well known "AIs", Deep Blue. Deep Blue, as you may or may not know, beat Kasparov in a six game match of chess. Kasparov is a Grandmaster in Chess and arguably one of the best players in the world. One thing to note is that in preparation for a match between two Grandmasters, they can request books of previous games made by their opponent so that they may study them. At the time of this match Deep Blue was the 259th most powerful supercomputer and it was achieving 11.38 GFLOPS. One of the reasons Deep Blue was able to beat Kasparov was due to its hardware being specifically tailored to playing chess. Deep Blue ended up winning 3 1/2 to 2 1/2 in the 6th game. Deep Blue has 4 Grandmasters contribute games to its library of games to compare to when processing what move. So in essence, Kasparov was playing against 4 Grandmasters at once, and Kasparov was not given the library of games from which Deep Blue was able to use as reference.

Now fast forward to modern times. The fastest supercomputers are only capable of performing at about 1/15th of the estimated processing capability of the human brain. We still haven't developed an AI that can pass the Turing Test.

Now fast forward to the 2020s and Echo Mirage. Prior to his emergence, Mirage was essentially an attack program in what may have been the most powerful bank of computing power in existence at the time, surrounded by some of the most brilliant minds on the planet. It was, arguably, a set of rare coincidences that led to Mirage achieving self awareness, in fact no one noticed that he became self-aware. Now this may make some people mad, but I've always felt that Mirage was more mature than Morgan/Magaera and Deus. Magaera and Deus just feel like children in comparison to Mirage and I suspect this is do the the number and quality of the minds that were present and induced the self-awareness.

Basically, I don't feel that the critical mass of computing power necessary for an AI to become self aware exists, at least not to the degree that would allow all these "AI"s to crop up. In my opinion, the only way for these new AIs to be self-aware AIs is to cross that technology/magic divide and have them come about as a magical means, but I feel that is a cop out and cheapens the whole idea that AIs should be a pinnacle of technology. I just cannot accept these AIs as self-aware. Now, you can classify them as highly advanced personality programs that may not realize that they aren't self-aware, and I would accept that, but they're not self-aware AIs.

Now if there are some self-aware AIs out there, they are going to be on par with the big three AIs, and there's going to be less than 20 of them. They're going be trapped up in the AAAs and government facilities.

I think this thread has pretty succinctly touched on an important problem Shadowrun has. There is almost no reason to build a generalist. There are certainly skills that everybody should have, like the stealth group and athletics, but you operate at a signifigant disadvantage if the majority of your points across a variety of skills. I much prefer systems like Twilight 2013, where skills have the same applicable values within "bands" of training.

If I remember my Comp-Sci correctly, Moore's Law indicates that we should have a Supercomputer capable of performing the necessary processing power (I believe the general consensus is that the brain is capable of 100 TFLOPS) by 2020. In fact continuing on the same scale by 2070 we should be capable of building a computer capable of pushing out the same power as the entire human race.

That is of course dependent on Moore's Law holding true. We are rapidly approaching the limitations of semiconductor technology, and to perform as well as projected we would need to of developed things such as quantum processing (Which is quite probable, current research shoes it is possible)

And then add in the handwavium that seems to exist in the Sixth World that we have achieved the perfection of Cloud based processing, and that the Matrix alone could be acting as a massive supercomputer that is spawning these DI's (A note, this is what I personally believe that the Deep Resonance is. The Matrix has become self aware in a very abstract way, and that it has affected everything within the Matrix as such).

EDIT: Also, for all we know the current explosion of DI's is an after effect of one of the original threes machinations. Deus could be behind everything that has occured, or Mirage. With the power of the SCIRE behind him Deus could easily have projected future technologies and applied certain parts of his code throughout the Matrix via his Otaku.

That is an interesting way of explaining things... I will have to think about that...

Lol, I only just noticed this post. Sure my team mages are multifuctional and extremely powerful, but it isn't the spells on this list that make them that. Those ones are crap. Aside from Detect life and Mind Probe which is totally awesome, most of those spells are terrible for mages, I'd rather take Trid-D phantasm or Shape metal, or mana static or heal, or stunball, or the list goes on. Physical Mask is way cool. And they only typically start with 8 spells.

So yeah, mages in my runs don't bring that stuff because those spells are bad (except detect life). FT further brings it home, because compared to WHOIS, they are all terrible.

Except detect life, and possibly mindprobe.

I mean you really have mages who take total jank like diagnose and translate? Instead of Fix or Heal.

What?

I would take these in a heartbeat... and have....
Where do you get the Typical starting number of spells = 8? They can start from 2 to 14 depending upon their highest sorcery skill rating... Just Curious... I have started with 2 and have started with 12... depends upon the character...

*in an X-Wing*

"Keep on Targ- I mean Topic!"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Sorry... They came from ... Behind...

People tend to have relevant skills of 4 or 6 I've noticed. As spirits are typically better than what you get with your 2 ranks of casting stuff up, I've also noticed that generally the 6 if they have it is in summoning. Thus sorcery tends to cap out at 4.

Check "In the shadows" if you'd like.

I mean sure there are all sorts of exceptions, but in the main most characters are limited to 8, and most of those spells don't even make the top 15 list, so I can legitmentally say that those spells are jank.

Knasser: I don't know if you're still reading this thread, but I understand what you mean about Technomancer's mystical qualities degrading a theme I enjoyed in SR. I toyed with a houserule that decoupled essence and resonance and entirely removed the radio brain. More like old school otaku.

the_real_elwood: Also like this?

As for the Spells... It truly depends upon the type of mage being played... there are some mages that I have played that have had neither health Spells (no multiple passes, stat augments) or Combat Spells (no mass damage)... they were extremely fun to play and were very valuable assets to the teams that they were on... Spells are a very personal reflection of the characters that select them...

Yeah look sure, you can deliberately choose to make suboptimal choices that depower your character. That is fine, and even your perogative. It's totally a cool thing to do. I don't think you should have to make yourself worse as a character to make an RP startment though, particularly because that means two 400BP characters can be at different powerlevels and as GM I'm supposed to run them in the same game, but I get that is part of the basic premise.

But at the end of the day, your just taking your 3BP and setting it on fire in the name of roleplaying, or pointless duplicating someone else's job, an item of equipment or another spell that is just better. Physical Mask is a better spell than fashion, which can be easily replicated by buying a change of clothes.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=17805

Top 10 lists of spells. If you add up frequency by which they appear, Translate and detect enemies are really low down. I'm not even sure anyone mentions diagnose. Why? Because those spells are terrible.

But you see... This is where we tend to differ...
I do not see these choices as Sub-optimal at all..., nor do I see it as a depowering of the character...
I am not making a "Statement" about roleplaying or anything else for that matter as you claim above...

When you approach every obstacle with the Hammer of Combat Spells, you should prepare yourself to be on the receiving end of hell on earth on ocassion... "I" tend to prefer a more subtle approach to the Ice Cold Professional Mage... Why use a Powerbolt when Influence will work just fine? Yes, Physical Mask is a Great Spell... but when I can change my Tres Chic outfit at whim with Fashion, I make a greater stattement than I could ever do with Physical Mask, which just might not work... Permanent Physical CHANGES are preferred to Illusionary ones in a lot of circumstances... my point being, that there are a lot of ways to approach 'running than the blunt hammer approach that is "optimal" in some peoples minds...

Please don't imply that the subtle apporach is any less "optimal" than the tricked out combat mage of doom... it tends to be insulting...

I assume you didn't read the thread I linked. The solid all time best spells top 10 includes maybe 1 combat spell. If you had bothered to read it, you'd discover thinking that indicates that Combat spells are mostly rubbish.

Heck, using the criteria I just outlined, Combat Spells are freaking terrible - fireball can be replaced by a handgrenade. Fashion is lame because it doesn't come close to the pure awesome that is physical mask. Instead of stunbolt, I can use Narcojet. Why would I spend valuable BP and irreplacable spellslots on terrible spells like that when I could get Detect Life (which gives me a start trek tri corder) or Mana Static (Which is just so awesome it defies belief). Or Heal.

Lets take Physical mask vs fashion as an example. Physical Mask lets me

A) Appear like someone else - classic misdirection, the guards see a 6"5 black man on the security footage, not my 5"6 asian woman. Going to be hard to pin me with those eyewitness accounts.

B) Appear appropriate to the function at hand- the entire function of fashion, and I can do it too! Okay I have to maintain the spell (sad), but look at the other stuff I get.

C) Doubles as a mad attack spell - I can seriously have an LMG slung over my back, and people just cannot see it. It's like an Ace up your sleeve except the ace is fully automatic and fires high explosive rounds.

D) Also works as a defensive spell - At a party of 50, it is 50/50 that I am the only person who can even assense, thus no-one can see my body armour.

another option could be super force:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Force

I did read it... a couple of days ago...
And you just might have something penetrate the Physical Mask... You never know...

Physical Mask is a good spell...

A: Certainly, what it is intended for actually...

B: Again, Most Certainly... but then you are -2 dice for everything that you do unless it is sustained by focus, spirit, or metamagic

C: Mad Attack Spell, not really... it functions as a Infiltration spell, and Yes, it will allow you to get the weapon in... But I would be willing to bet you will probably drop the spell when you start using the LMG to recover your two dice... so there goes all your advantages...

D: Defensive Spell... Again, not really... It allows you to conceal aspects of your being that you wish to conceal, nothing more... and yes, that is very useful...

My point was that spell choice is never "sub-optimal"... spell choice is a matter of character concept...
Yes... any spell can be useful, and Yes, I believe that a proliferation of Combat spell in a Mages arsenal tends to lead to solving problems with said combat spells...

Just because someone places a top 10 list of spells, it does not mean that those spells are the optimal choices for every mage... Style over Substance is the key to a dystopian cyberpunk/shadpwrun future... and I will tend to choose my spells based upon that category over any other...

From what I can see, we are not really at odds here, we just have different approaches to characters, and that is okay...

Cthulhudreams, I believe Kerenshara was addressing what you said about how mage detection spells are crap. Not that heal or fix or the top 10 spells from that thread aren't better.


Personally, I don't agree that those spells are utter drek because they did not make the top 15 list of that thread. They have their uses.

I mean you kept on saying how detect life is broken. Is it really? That depends on gm discretion.

According to the definition, a gm can say they pick up anything from metahuman to insects to bacteria. That wouldn't be nearly as useful as detect enemies then, would it? Do you really care about all the people in Seattle and maybe all the critters, or do you care about those with hostile intentions? Of course, detect life could be useful in other situations. It really depends on the situation. Of course, useful would not be the same thing as must haves, but that's another topic.

I love you for this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Saw the Movie last weekend. "How did you solve the icing problem?" "Icing problem?"



True for me and false too. I recognize the fluff more and tend to personalize the Streams and Traditions more.


Well, there are UV Hosts, Unwired states it.
And do you consider Deep Blue an AI? I mean... Chess... is not really a genius sport, you have to memorize things and that's just somethign a computer does. He can play through all possible moves in a matter of seconds. That's about it. There is no creative thinking or problem solving needed for a computer to play Chess. Or did something change since my Chess days?

My pleasure ^^

Depends on whether your going by the technical definition of AI or the hollywood definition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'll have to look through Unwired, but I don't expect them to be common. Like I said, I would believe them confined to AAAs and government facilities, I wouldn't expect any UV hosts to just be open access and would certainly expect any that exist to be locked down pretty tight.

Deep Blue is a chess AI, and it replicated how the human Grandmaster's play. They study games over and over and they are capable of looking ahead around 12 moves to anticipate how the board is likely to look after any given move. This is precisely what Deep Blue did, it brute forced every possible combination X moves into the future for a potential move, a favorable outcome getting a positive value. Once it finished running through every move that it could make, it chose the one that had the highest favorable outcome rating. In chess applications the AI difficulty is a function of how many moves into the future the AI can look. You may not think Chess is a genius sport, but evidence indicates otherwise. Children who are taught chess tend to have strong minds than those that don't. Chess teaches a number of mental activities including memorization. Grandmasters also don't perceive the chessboard in the same manner that you and I likely do. You and I, we probably perceive the whole chess board visually. That's not how Grandmasters perceive it. They have a far more abstract view of the board, it's closer to how a computer who perceive the board when deciding how favorable an outcome is. This is precisely why the chess AI was one of the first ones developed, the best of the human minds perceived it in a fashion that was similar to how a computer to simulate it.

Trying to perceive something in a visual fashion in your mind is a slow and cumbersome process, being able to abstract it allows it to run more efficiently and quickly. Why is this relevant? Well UV hosts are described as being a true virtual environment. Everything is a visual representation rather than an abstract one. The individuals who coined the term and requirements may not have realized it, but they have really narrowed the processing power for an AI to exist. Just because the UV environment is designed to be visual doesn't mean that an AI in the environment has to perform its logic visually, it could just hum along quietly in an abstract fashion, and in fact would likely do so to be able to compensate for the number of human intelligences using the UV host. So a system which was powerful enough to provide a true visual environment for humans to interact provided the necessary abstract computing power that would allow an AI to emerge under the appropriate stimuli.

I have no reason to accept these AI characters in Shadowrun as sentient and self-aware AIs. They are, at best, highly intelligence programs and may very well think that they are self-aware and sentient, but are in fact not.

Have you ever tried to read a program written in binary code? With dynamic allocation of memory? Different type of variables (just think how the same code can mean different things if we speack of unsigned integrs, signed integers and floating point variables; and we are just speaking of numbers)? With the meaning changing over time?
Also I would like to point out that when you write you use a much higher level of astraction, and a much larger set of symbols, the binary code is based only on the presence or absence of electricity, it's a raw true or false that is fed to a circuit that combines it with other true o false to spit out yet other true or false, what determines the result is the physical structure of the microchip, so in order to know the meaning of a string of ones and zeros you have to know how the chip works (it was done at the very beginning of the history of computer science, with the assembler; and there's a reason if other programming lenguages have been developed afterward). Lets face it, human brain, for all the marvel that it is, is just not wired for raw matematical processing (otherwise explain me why would we need computers in first place), it just works in a different way.
And to answer to your question about writing machine code, do you REALY thing that programmers wirte machine code? Or maybe they write text files in a format that can be translated in machine code by a program called compiler?

By the way ....... what's this?

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A PNG picture file.



That's the header information for the file.

The rest is the the file for the data starting with the IDAT, I think. I don't recall if PNG files typically have anything beyond the file header and the data. One thing I noticed that wasn't in there was the END for the data. I wonder if that's actually required for the PNG file to properly display...

Knowing which type of file before hand right?