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AllTheNothing
post Aug 6 2009, 12:04 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 02:02 PM) *
A PNG picture file.



True........... Which?
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AllTheNothing
post Aug 6 2009, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE (cREbralFIX @ Aug 5 2009, 04:34 AM) *
Shadowrun is clearly moving into Earthdawn territory.

TM's are simply an expression of the "Magic as Technology" theme prevalent in Earthdawn.

I'm not really excited about going down the road of Earthdawn. It'll probably make for a good story, but...it's not SR. It's already been done and SR needs to keep moving into new areas.

I prefer more of a techno-punk world with magic being less prevalent. I like to make mages more rare, which increases their value. I'd rather see a higher percentage of Hackers over magically active characters in a story.

To address Resonance versus Magic: they'll merge together. It's clear the developers are going that route. I can certainly see a time where the "Haves" are those magically active people who can interact with technology. Nothing like a Mark 17 Blaster in the 30 gigawatt range powered by mana! Need that blaster to shoot ice? No problem! The power cells will amplify the magical effect, acting like a Magic 12 instead of your PC's 5. Anyhow, this coincides with Earthdawn's Theran empire where elven mages ruled the enslaved masses.

But, that won't happen in my game. I'll just back off on that in favor of a more techno-punk story.



Feel the same.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 6 2009, 12:09 PM
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heh, got to love the random smiley that showed up in that jumble (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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StealthSigma
post Aug 6 2009, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Aug 6 2009, 07:04 AM) *
True........... Which?


No idea, I can't read that and tell you what the picture shows. I copied the text into a blank file and made it a PNG and got nothing. So either there's important parts missing, some of the characters didn't translate well, or it's just a bunch of junk. I do not know.
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GreyBrother
post Aug 6 2009, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 6 2009, 12:03 PM) *
Depends on whether your going by the technical definition of AI or the hollywood definition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As far as i know - you may correct me, i beg you - the current definition divides between "weak" and "strong" AI. The weak AI is something like Deep Blue, not Self-Aware or able to think outsides it's box. The strong AIs are those Fiction looks for. Selfaware, creative, personality, maybe even emotions?
At least that's what i learned about RL AI research on the net, as i stated, please correct me if you see a mistake.
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StealthSigma
post Aug 6 2009, 12:46 PM
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QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 6 2009, 07:41 AM) *
As far as i know - you may correct me, i beg you - the current definition divides between "weak" and "strong" AI. The weak AI is something like Deep Blue, not Self-Aware or able to think outsides it's box. The strong AIs are those Fiction looks for. Selfaware, creative, personality, maybe even emotions?
At least that's what i learned about RL AI research on the net, as i stated, please correct me if you see a mistake.


That is correct. As far as I'm concerned the only Shadowrun AIs that have been strong AIs were Mirage/Deus/Magaera.
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AllTheNothing
post Aug 6 2009, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 02:14 PM) *
No idea, I can't read that and tell you what the picture shows. I copied the text into a blank file and made it a PNG and got nothing. So either there's important parts missing, some of the characters didn't translate well, or it's just a bunch of junk. I do not know.



That's the DumpShock logo from the upper left corner of the page ........ maybe it's due those blasted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) !!!!
Anyway I've just saved it, opened it with notepad and copied the text.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 6 2009, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 6 2009, 02:41 PM) *
As far as i know - you may correct me, i beg you - the current definition divides between "weak" and "strong" AI. The weak AI is something like Deep Blue, not Self-Aware or able to think outsides it's box. The strong AIs are those Fiction looks for. Selfaware, creative, personality, maybe even emotions?
At least that's what i learned about RL AI research on the net, as i stated, please correct me if you see a mistake.

another way to sort them are "expert system" and "AI", as a expert system will be one thats highly adept at performing a specific task (like playing chess).

i recall reading about neural nets being trained to tell moles from cancer, but trying to use the same neural net for anything else and you could just as well toss a coin...
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CodeBreaker
post Aug 6 2009, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 01:46 PM) *
That is correct. As far as I'm concerned the only Shadowrun AIs that have been strong AIs were Mirage/Deus/Magaera.


Why? From what has occured in the Sixth World since the Emergance it is clear that the DI's are for all purposes Sentient/Sapient. They almost certainly pass the Turing Test. They have been noted to be concerned for their own survival and act to increase the chances of that survival. They act in their own self interest, and have begun to create their own "Tribal" communities. They have shown creativity and the ability to move away from their original coding. They have shown the ability to learn both about the Matrix Virtual World and the Real World, and then use that knowledge to interact with both in a way that is beneficial. If they are capable of all that they are certainly capable of looking in a mirror and understanding that what they are looking at is themselves (A test used on some primates to determine sentience.) What other variables do you want to be fulfilled before you would consider them Sapient?

Again, I can see no reason that a true AI is not possible by 2070. The processing power almost certainly exists within a single unit (And again, then you throw in the possibility of Cloud Based processing which furthers that power to a huge amount). A "Strong" AI has been shown to be possible in the case the original three, and since then the abilities of self adapting software has certainly increased, as well as the capabilities of every day devices. And as also noted earlier there is the possibility that these DI's are the work of one of those original three. Deus only exists because Maegera was ripped to shreds. Perhaps when they all fought it out during the Crash one of them saw what was coming and acted to prevent the extinction of their "species" and threw out parts of its code in the hopes that something would spark a new being.

We do not know enough about the origins of these DIs to come to any conclussions really. But I do hope that the Devs do not just cop out and say "Great Spirit is behind all the Matrix Stuff!". They still have more than enough avenues to bring it back to a technological singularity.

(And Mirage/Deus/Magaera are the only AI's that we know about. Those are the only ones that came into contact with Shadowrunners in a meaningful way and created a big enough wave. Others could easily of stayed hidden if they had wanted to (Mirage managed it for over 30 years, but I guess a fair few of those was sitting in some abandoned warehouse in a Terminal). The AI that might be in the Nexus is one example)
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hobgoblin
post Aug 6 2009, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 02:46 PM) *
That is correct. As far as I'm concerned the only Shadowrun AIs that have been strong AIs were Mirage/Deus/Magaera.

lets not forget that there was a sub-AI running around in SR3, the SK, or semi-autonomous knowbot...

hell, it was hinted that these knowbots was what the AI's spawned from.

in SR4, it seems that the agents and drone pilots may well have "evolved" into SK like territory...
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hobgoblin
post Aug 6 2009, 01:22 PM
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btw, the metasapient is just one variant of AI running round in SR4...

there is also the xenosapient and protosapient.

one sounds very much like a government worker in software form, while the other a wild animal...
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StealthSigma
post Aug 6 2009, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Aug 6 2009, 09:07 AM) *
That's the DumpShock logo from the upper left corner of the page ........ maybe it's due those blasted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) !!!!
Anyway I've just saved it, opened it with notepad and copied the text.


I just did the same thing, as an exercise in fun I did a comparison between what you pasted as characters to the saved file....

The saved file is 2F2008 (3,088,392) bytes long.
The text you pasted is 2FC00E (3,129,358) bytes long.

I've noticed first off that the IEND characters that are at the end of every PNG file were lacking in your pasted version. I'm thinking that some of the copied text didn't copy correctly when put into the web....
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GreyBrother
post Aug 6 2009, 01:26 PM
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AFAIK, Morgana was an SK (before she transformed to Morgana), Deus was a highly sophisticated SK or Expert System with parts of Morgana und Mirage was the first ever conceived SK, AFAIK too.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 02:46 PM) *
That is correct. As far as I'm concerned the only Shadowrun AIs that have been strong AIs were Mirage/Deus/Magaera.

This is for you to decide. I miss those three too, but by the Strong/Weak definition, AIs like Pulse or Sojourner are strong in my eyes. Even the Ferals and Xenos.
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knasser
post Aug 6 2009, 02:01 PM
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I think all the AIs called AIs in SR4 meet the criteria for Strong AI. I think weak AI are things like Agents or Knowsofts. After all, if it can give you the skill to perform surgery on a patient, pilot a plane from one city to another, trade stocks, etc., that's Weak AI.

By the way, I think I can see the topic from here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

K.
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StealthSigma
post Aug 6 2009, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug 6 2009, 09:18 AM) *
Why? From what has occured in the Sixth World since the Emergance it is clear that the DI's are for all purposes Sentient/Sapient. They almost certainly pass the Turing Test. They have been noted to be concerned for their own survival and act to increase the chances of that survival. They act in their own self interest, and have begun to create their own "Tribal" communities. They have shown creativity and the ability to move away from their original coding. They have shown the ability to learn both about the Matrix Virtual World and the Real World, and then use that knowledge to interact with both in a way that is beneficial. If they are capable of all that they are certainly capable of looking in a mirror and understanding that what they are looking at is themselves (A test used on some primates to determine sentience.) What other variables do you want to be fulfilled before you would consider them Sapient?

Again, I can see no reason that a true AI is not possible by 2070. The processing power almost certainly exists within a single unit (And again, then you throw in the possibility of Cloud Based processing which furthers that power to a huge amount). A "Strong" AI has been shown to be possible in the case the original three, and since then the abilities of self adapting software has certainly increased, as well as the capabilities of every day devices. And as also noted earlier there is the possibility that these DI's are the work of one of those original three. Deus only exists because Maegera was ripped to shreds. Perhaps when they all fought it out during the Crash one of them saw what was coming and acted to prevent the extinction of their "species" and threw out parts of its code in the hopes that something would spark a new being.


No, you've misunderstood my argument. The problem is that these AIs are somehow "weaker" yet they still just "sprung" into existence like the big three is the issue. There is evidence there is a need for a critical mass of contiguous computing power for an AI to emerge and become self-aware. If this contiguous critical mass was not required, then this new classification of digital intelligence would have been cropping up prior to the second matrix crash due to the amount of computing power available in the first matrix. Once the intelligence has emerged then there's nothing keeping it from fracturing itself to run using a cloud computing method.

There's only a couple of acceptable logical explanations for DIs.

1. These are strong AIs but there were entirely developed by metahumans, they are not emergent and did not spontaneously come into existence.
2. These are NOT strong AIs but are highly advanced intelligence programs.
3. Magicky handwaivery.

I have a hard time agreeing with #1 because if that were the case, there would be evidence that would point to that.
#3 irritates me because it helps that whole concept that the Matrix is become to magicky and narrows the difference between technology and magic.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 6 2009, 02:22 PM
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nah, thats just a fata morgana...
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knasser
post Aug 6 2009, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 6 2009, 03:22 PM) *
nah, thats just a fata morgana...


waka waka

How can a play on words be so clever and so terrible at the same time? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) =:o

That. Was. Awful! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
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Kerenshara
post Aug 6 2009, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 6 2009, 09:44 AM) *
waka waka

How can a play on words be so clever and so terrible at the same time? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) =:o

That. Was. Awful! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

"Hay! Kermaaaaat!"

"Yeah, Fozzie?"

"Wanna hear my new joke?"

"Um, I sort of need to be going-"

"Oh, come on, come in, it's great!"

"Mmmmmgh, ok Fozzie I guess..."

"OK... [Insert Lamest Joke You Know, here]"
"Waka waka!"

*from the balcony*
"That was so bad, I want my money back!"

"But you didn't pay for the ticket!"

"I know!"

"Ah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah!"
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hobgoblin
post Aug 6 2009, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 6 2009, 04:44 PM) *
waka waka

How can a play on words be so clever and so terrible at the same time? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) =:o

That. Was. Awful! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

the worst part, it was not intended as such. Only now that its pointed out, i see it...

but then i keep dropping comments that could get a nun blushing, and i need to be told what the issue is...
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knasser
post Aug 6 2009, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 6 2009, 04:35 PM) *
the worst part, it was not intended as such. Only now that its pointed out, i see it...


Really? That's a great shame. The pain was only mitigated for me by respect for your ability to make Latin puns that worked on multiple levels. Ah well, I shall simply pretend it was deliberate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

@Kerenshara: Those two old guys were my favourite!
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Warlordtheft
post Aug 6 2009, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 6 2009, 09:01 AM) *
I think all the AIs called AIs in SR4 meet the criteria for Strong AI. I think weak AI are things like Agents or Knowsofts. After all, if it can give you the skill to perform surgery on a patient, pilot a plane from one city to another, trade stocks, etc., that's Weak AI.

By the way, I think I can see the topic from here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

K.


I'll put forth there are AI's all over the place. Heck even now in RL there are AI's (think of all those bots in a first person shooter). In any event-what the real question is if the AI is self sentient or not.

Basically you have a few categories of AI's in SR4:
Simple AIs: Agents-that don't do anythin that is off the script or beyond their programming or what a user tells them to do.
Feral AI: Independent funtioning program that tends to act on just a survival instinct only. Has no means or capability to talk to others, though it will react to the presence of other matrix entities. Usually hostile.
Civilized AI-Independent and capable of enough full meta-human thought. Note that this does not meant it thinks like a human, as its perception can be radically different.
God/dragon like AI-Dues, Mirage, Morgan that had mental capabilities beyond a meta-human.

Now for sprites:
Controlled Sprites are AI's that formed by random code noise that TM manipulates and puts together.
Free sprites-Matrix equivielnt of Free spirits. They vary in capability from dumb as a post to dragon like intelligence.

Yes-I have noticed that they took the matrix and gave your the option of a street sam (hacker) or mage ™. Though early on TM's have it harder early on, a hacker it seems has a harder time improving oneself. There is the Adept option (since mages and adepts can use AR and VR without penalty in 4E)
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deek
post Aug 6 2009, 05:13 PM
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Anyone who has ever played Street Fighter II, knows that M. Bison was a frickin' AI.
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siel
post Aug 6 2009, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 10:13 AM) *
No, you've misunderstood my argument. The problem is that these AIs are somehow "weaker" yet they still just "sprung" into existence like the big three is the issue. There is evidence there is a need for a critical mass of contiguous computing power for an AI to emerge and become self-aware. If this contiguous critical mass was not required, then this new classification of digital intelligence would have been cropping up prior to the second matrix crash due to the amount of computing power available in the first matrix. Once the intelligence has emerged then there's nothing keeping it from fracturing itself to run using a cloud computing method.

There's only a couple of acceptable logical explanations for DIs.

1. These are strong AIs but there were entirely developed by metahumans, they are not emergent and did not spontaneously come into existence.
2. These are NOT strong AIs but are highly advanced intelligence programs.
3. Magicky handwaivery.

I have a hard time agreeing with #1 because if that were the case, there would be evidence that would point to that.
#3 irritates me because it helps that whole concept that the Matrix is become to magicky and narrows the difference between technology and magic.


So you are saying, 'real' AI like deus require a tremendous computing power. Post crash computer system that the new AI/DI are on does not have such computing power. If new AI/DI can exist on the computing power from the post crash computer system, then they should have existed in the pre crash computer system.

However, pre-crash AI/DI might not have existed due to software issue, not hardware issue. We know that AI and Morgana required a spark. We could see that as a requirement on the software side. Other nodes with tremendous computing power exists, but the potential DI/AI didn't have the spark. Not to mention Deus would probably have assimilated any that did to remove competition.

So, I can have a theory (or points/ideas) below:

1. It requires tremendous computing power to have the emergent of the spark (or code) that makes an AI sentient occur spontaneously. 

2. Once the spark is obtained, it does not require the same tremendous computing power to keep the sentience. 

(This is because you aren't trying to write code that metahuman never wrote. An example would be Deus got out of the arcology, put himself together, and is still sentient.)

3. Tremendous computing power, however, allow AI to be the uber AI that Deus and Morgana were.

4. Post Crash and Pre Crash both had plenty of computers with enough power to allow sentient AI (but not generate sentient AI).

5. Post Crash AI/DI acquired the spark during the Crash.

(This might have occurred for whatever reason. Maybe the AI didn't want to die, they rather pass on their 'genes' like someone else said earlier than to simply perish away. Maybe Deus was hoping that his conscious would remain and he can continue whatever he was doing.)


6. Post Crash AI/DI have computing power enough for sentience, together with spark, AI/DI can exist. 

7. Without UV host or tremendous computing power, the AI/DI can't be uber like Deus.

(And once you give AI/DI high rating computer system and a lot of karma, they will be uber (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )




Anyway, just a possible interpretation. I am not a master of all the shadowrun history and is very likely to have gotten something wrong. I felt like this allows for the explanation of AI/DI without 'hey it's magical. Magic came to matrix and out comes AI.' Also, with the little we know of what happened to Deus and Morgana, what is to say that they aren't secretly manipulating the matrix. Nothing stops them from being the technology side of a Great Dragon just because little drakes and dragon like AI/DI appeared. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

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Cthulhudreams
post Aug 7 2009, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (siel @ Aug 6 2009, 02:53 PM) *
I mean you kept on saying how detect life is broken. Is it really? That depends on gm discretion.

According to the definition, a gm can say they pick up anything from metahuman to insects to bacteria. That wouldn't be nearly as useful as detect enemies then, would it? Do you really care about all the people in Seattle and maybe all the critters, or do you care about those with hostile intentions? Of course, detect life could be useful in other situations. It really depends on the situation. Of course, useful would not be the same thing as must haves, but that's another topic.


Did you read the example? The example says that the spell tells you

A) Who is waiting for you

B) What they are doing

C) What they are thinking

It is just amazing and seriously just straight up and down better than many of the other spells in the game. Detect enemies is, for example, a total joke compared to detect life.

But Siel, you need to understand oppotunity costs. If you do X, and didn't do Y, the cost is not just whatever you got from X, bu what you missed out from in Y. Look, If I give you two choices

1) I give you 4 billion dollars

2) I give you 4 million dollars

no strings attached etc etc. While in the absolute 2 is good, because it gives you 4 million dollars which is great, it still a bad choice because you just turned down the opportunity to get 4 billion dollars.

Taking detect enemies is rubbish and detect enemies is a jank spell because you are turning down an opportunity to take something from the top 15 list. If there are 15 spells that are better than detect enemies, and you can only take 12 spells, taking detect enemies is always a bad choice.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 7 2009, 01:07 AM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 6 2009, 05:56 PM) *
Did you read the example? The example says that the spell tells you

A) Who is waiting for you

B) What they are doing

C) What they are thinking

It is just amazing and seriously just straight up and down better than many of the other spells in the game. Detect enemies is, for example, a total joke compared to detect life.

But Siel, you need to understand oppotunity costs. If you do X, and didn't do Y, the cost is not just whatever you got from X, bu what you missed out from in Y. Look, If I give you two choices

1) I give you 4 billion dollars

2) I give you 4 million dollars

no strings attached etc etc. While in the absolute 2 is good, because it gives you 4 million dollars which is great, it still a bad choice because you just turned down the opportunity to get 4 billion dollars.

Taking detect enemies is rubbish and detect enemies is a jank spell because you are turning down an opportunity to take something from the top 15 list. If there are 15 spells that are better than detect enemies, and you can only take 12 spells, taking detect enemies is always a bad choice.



I say that it still depends upon your character and his objectives...
Detect Life is great, except that it does exactly that... DETECT LIFE... Me, I really do not care about everythign around me that is alive, which is going to potentially be a VERY LARGE number of living things... Detect Enemies does JUST that... Detects those who have a directed intent to harm me...

Detect Enemies is more Immediately useful than Detect Life in a lot of circumstances...

They are both good spells... very different uses though...
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