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Kerenshara
post Aug 22 2009, 03:02 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 22 2009, 01:31 AM) *
Err, are we reading two separate threads here?

No, but I finally figured out where the disconnect is.

QUOTE
The alleged "cheese" is that a Conjurer is using their spirit to cast spells they know since they, themselves, can't cast them very well. Thus those who are saying it's "cheesy" are implying that it's somehow wrong for a Conjurer's spirits to use Innate Spell properly because a Conjurer shouldn't know any spells at all. Or, in some cases, that the spirit's Innate Spell ability should take the -4 to -6 penalty that the Conjurer does. I'm not sure which one of those they're supporting honestly; it's rather confusing logic to me.

By the rules they're not gimped. People in this thread want them to be gimped to avoid being "cheesy."

Aha! See, "cheesey" is (from me) a way to indicate a means of getting around a rule-glitch or taking advantage of a useful loop-hole in a dramatically effective fashion. If I thouhgt it needed "fixing" I would have called it "broken" (needing a re-write) or "unbalanced" (needing a NerfTM). I see no reason that -4 or -6 should apply to the spirit. That's why I got confused because you apparently had me lumped in with that other crowd.

QUOTE
I'm not sure I understand what you think is cheesy now. Conjurers suffer a penalty when they cast spells themselves. No one is denying that. Conjurers have the ability to let their spirits use spells they know through Innate Spell. This is where people are claiming how horribly wrong it is in all ways imaginable. Which it isn't. Not even remotely.

I'm also not sure why you're saying it's not your argument, too. Whether the Conjurer is learning a spell 'exclusively for use by his spirit" or not, it doesn't matter. So what if he's doing it that way? Why shouldn't he, since spirits are his bread and butter? If a player just doesn't say he's doing it but actually is, does that make it less cheesy somehow? Is it wrong for a Drone Rigger to buy a heavy machine gun for his drone even though he can't use it himself? Same exact difference.

I defined my idea of cheesey above. It's within the rules, neither broken nor unbalanced, and generally requires somebody with in-depth understanding (not just knowledge) of the rules to come up with. Munchy is usually unballanced in my lexicon, where not outright broken.

You misunderstan me. I have no inherent PROBLEM with somebody doing it. I think it's "cheesey" to take a spell you don't have the moxy to pull off yourself just so you can hand it off to your buff pall Mrs. Spirit. I will wind up ribbing the player of said character all of once, the first time I see them do it, with a good natured and awe-tinged "Narf, that's CHEESEY, Brain!" but after that, it's legal and works. I understand the game mchanic to balance things by requiring a conjuring mage to know the spell themselves, otherwise why learn anything abnormal yourself? Just call in your helpfull spirit buddy and away you go! So it's only cheesey because it gets around a silly (but vital) game blance mechanic. Since they're paying BP/Karma for a spell they probably won't ever actually toss, it's fair. That doesn't make it any less brilliant of an exploit IMHO. Thank heavens they can still only have one un-bound spirit at a time. *grin*
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Kerenshara
post Aug 22 2009, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 22 2009, 09:49 AM) *
Exactly. Good example.

I might try to play an Aspected Magician just to see if the 5 BP bonus comes even remotely close to making up for all the detriments that accrue to being Aspected.

Kerenshara's aspected Sorcery. Why? Because her training so far has been abysmally spotty and haphazard. Once she gets the drek figured out (there's a story coming about that, watch the vignette thread), she'll be buying that off post-haste. I like it, because it really represets how the character is thinking and working as much as just game stat stuff. I say "go for it!"
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Rasumichin
post Aug 22 2009, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 22 2009, 02:49 PM) *
I might try to play an Aspected Magician just to see if the 5 BP bonus comes even remotely close to making up for all the detriments that accrue to being Aspected.


5BP certainly don't make up for being so seriously gimped in that many skills (and the list will always include some of the most versatile and useful skills in the game, e.g. Spellcasting, Conjuring or both).

Of course, this doesn't mean that you can't build a "viable" aspected magician.

If you want to cover the entire range of magical skills, there's always the risk of coming up with a character who is "spread too thin", so to say.
If you focus only on a part of what Awakened characters can do, you'll certainly find it a lot easier to come up with a well-rounded character who is proficient at things outside of magic.
The real benefit of Aspected Magician is not the 5BP for the Quality, it's saving many more build points who would've otherwise gone into Magical Active Skills.
Admittedly, this only pays off if your concept doesn't involve these skills anyway.
And you won't be able to reach the tremendous power and flexibility of full magicians.
But still, you may come up with a competent runner in the end.

For example, one could build a well-connected company man with good social skills who, besides working as the group's face, also happens to be a kick-ass summoner.
Surely, this character would be a good addition to any team of runners.

Or you could build a dedicated combat sorcerer, a scout/infiltrator/astral spy and so on.

It's certainly an interesting approach if you've done the classic jack-of-all-magical-trades type magician over and over again.

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 22 2009, 03:02 PM) *
Aha! See, "cheesey" is (from me) a way to indicate a means of getting around a rule-glitch or taking advantage of a useful loop-hole in a dramatically effective fashion.


But...having to learn a skill you won't be able to use efficiently just so that one type of your spirits is on par with the same spirit summoned by a character without your meager 5BP flaw just isn't "dramatically effective" in the least.

If that's cheesy, then your definition of cheesy boils down to "someone did something with the rules i did not expect".
And i don't get why one should look down on people who do this if what they're doing is (as you have admitted) not detrimental to the game in the slightest.
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Kerenshara
post Aug 22 2009, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 22 2009, 10:21 AM) *
But...having to learn a skill you won't be able to use efficiently just so that one type of your spirits is on par with the same spirit summoned by a character without your meager 5BP flaw just isn't "dramatically effective" in the least.

If that's cheesy, then your definition of cheesy boils down to "someone did something with the rules i did not expect".
And i don't get why one should look down on people who do this if what they're doing is (as you have admitted) not detrimental to the game in the slightest.

Sorry, you lost me. In what way are a Conjuror's spirits any less capable than a normal Magician's?
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 22 2009, 04:59 PM
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If you deny a Conjurer the ability to use Innate Spell because it's "cheesy" (and I know you're not, but people in this thread are upset by it), then you're gimping their Spirits of Man and any other spirits with that power. A standard Magician will be able to use Innate Spell fully while a Conjurer will not. Thus their spirits are gimped compared to the full magician.
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Kerenshara
post Aug 22 2009, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 22 2009, 11:59 AM) *
If you deny a Conjurer the ability to use Innate Spell because it's "cheesy" (and I know you're not, but people in this thread are upset by it), then you're gimping their Spirits of Man and any other spirits with that power. A standard Magician will be able to use Innate Spell fully while a Conjurer will not. Thus their spirits are gimped compared to the full magician.

Right, and while I think it's "cheesey" to do what the OP suggested, I see NO reason to NerfTM the spirits. That's why you and I have been talking at cross purposes (arguments). I don't have a problem with it, as their GM. It's legal and balanced and fair. Still "cheesey" as a way to hand off a spell, but that's ok. Cheesey's allowed, and to a certain extent, expected. And I DO get the right to rib them about it when I first see it go off in game.
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 22 2009, 06:13 PM
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Right. And some of us are saying that it's neither unbalanced nor "cheesy." No more than a Sorcerer using Spirit Bolt to get around their weakened ability to use Astral Combat or Banishing or a Drone Rigger adding a Heavy Weapon to their drones.
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Kerenshara
post Aug 22 2009, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 22 2009, 01:13 PM) *
Right. And some of us are saying that it's neither unbalanced nor "cheesy." No more than a Sorcerer using Spirit Bolt to get around their weakened ability to use Astral Combat or Banishing or a Drone Rigger adding a Heavy Weapon to their drones.

"Cheesey" is subjective, Doc. I agree it's not unbalanced in any way. There's LOTS of things that're "cheesey" that are perfectly acceptable to me.

Now, choosing Elf and a CHArisma drain tradition just because of the Drain Pool is "Munchy". If there's a better reason to be taking it, or you at least come up with a good background about how your elf relates to their tradition, then I'm willing to move it down to just "cheesey". If you were to take that same elf, picked a CHArisma tradition, took the Quality to bump the attribute, chose SURGE with metagenic improvement CHArisma (with piddly downsides that don't really do much) and took the geneware to boost CHA as well, I'd probably call "unbalanced" even if it's legal, definitely "Munchy". By the time you max that stat and WILlpower, it's going to be "broken" relative to the whole system, even if it's legal.

I posted elsewhere about the expectations of the Devs and the limits of the system they built. If you go with that "unbalanced" or "broken" elf from above, and took a couple levels of "Focused Concentration" with Karma after game start and the geneware on WILlpower, you could get to a Drain Resistance pool - without Initiation - of 20 dice. Please tell me you agree that's "broken" in terms of what it will mean for game-balance. If a mage can effectively ignore Drain for summoning and spellcasting, then there's nothing to stop them from effectively walking away with the game, short of you heaping overwhelming physical force on them to kill them instantly. Total cost is achievable at Char Gen, and the stats can be bought up soon after start. But that's just one example. It's all a matter of degree.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 22 2009, 07:46 PM
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14 vs. 6

That is the difference between Magical Traditions that DO NOT use Spirits of Man vs. those that DO...
SO... for those who follow the majority of traditions (almost 3 to 1) that do not even have access to a Spirit of Man, this is a non-relevant worry... for those that do use Spirits of Man, then they will have to compensate (as they probably will) by purchasing at least one skill level in Spellcasting or Ritual Spellcasting so that they can acquire spells for their spirits...

Me personally, I prefer the traditions the do not use Spirits of Man, as aspected Conjurers anyway... These concepts are (at least for me) certainly more interesting as stand alone aspected magicians, and are not required to have skills that are extraneous to their concept to compete with those that might otherwise require additional skills to compensate or compete equally (wow, that is a little confusing)...

This is not cheesy to me in the least... it would seem a good practice and appears to be somewhat in line with the fluff... Remember, some of the best spell designers in the world are not magically active... why would someone without any magic want to take a skill (Arcana) that does them no good? Is it cheesy that they do so to make a good living on the proceeds of their craft? I would say not...

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knasser
post Aug 22 2009, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 22 2009, 04:21 PM) *
The real benefit of Aspected Magician is not the 5BP for the Quality, it's saving many more build points who would've otherwise gone into Magical Active Skills.


I like that. Aspecting as a kind of character design equivalent of Weight Watchers. You've made a commitment and you're obliged to stick to it. Heh!

K.
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 22 2009, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 22 2009, 02:33 PM) *
"Cheesey" is subjective, Doc. I agree it's not unbalanced in any way. There's LOTS of things that're "cheesey" that are perfectly acceptable to me.

Now, choosing Elf and a CHArisma drain tradition just because of the Drain Pool is "Munchy". If there's a better reason to be taking it, or you at least come up with a good background about how your elf relates to their tradition, then I'm willing to move it down to just "cheesey". If you were to take that same elf, picked a CHArisma tradition, took the Quality to bump the attribute, chose SURGE with metagenic improvement CHArisma (with piddly downsides that don't really do much) and took the geneware to boost CHA as well, I'd probably call "unbalanced" even if it's legal, definitely "Munchy". By the time you max that stat and WILlpower, it's going to be "broken" relative to the whole system, even if it's legal.

I posted elsewhere about the expectations of the Devs and the limits of the system they built. If you go with that "unbalanced" or "broken" elf from above, and took a couple levels of "Focused Concentration" with Karma after game start and the geneware on WILlpower, you could get to a Drain Resistance pool - without Initiation - of 20 dice. Please tell me you agree that's "broken" in terms of what it will mean for game-balance. If a mage can effectively ignore Drain for summoning and spellcasting, then there's nothing to stop them from effectively walking away with the game, short of you heaping overwhelming physical force on them to kill them instantly. Total cost is achievable at Char Gen, and the stats can be bought up soon after start. But that's just one example. It's all a matter of degree.

You're talking to someone who's hated the brunt of the design philosophy for this game for a long, long time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I love the setting, I hate the way the rules are balanced and laid out. So yes, I definitely find anything like that incredibly munchy. But those are two completely separate issues, too.

I just get my feathers ruffled when people try to make an issue out of something that's anything but. Complaining about pornomancers and 20+ dice pools is fine. Complaining about someone being unduly punished for gaining a net benefit of 0 (and actually taking a hit overall)... well, that's what rubs me the wrong way. Conjurers have it hard enough as is by having such limited access to spellcasting (not to mention astral space in general; something else I take issue with). No sense to punish or deride them even more by harshing on their spirits.
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Kerenshara
post Aug 22 2009, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 22 2009, 03:40 PM) *
You're talking to someone who's hated the brunt of the design philosophy for this game for a long, long time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I love the setting, I hate the way the rules are balanced and laid out. So yes, I definitely find anything like that incredibly munchy. But those are two completely separate issues, too.

I just get my feathers ruffled when people try to make an issue out of something that's anything but. Complaining about pornomancers and 20+ dice pools is fine. Complaining about someone being unduly punished for gaining a net benefit of 0 (and actually taking a hit overall)... well, that's what rubs me the wrong way. Conjurers have it hard enough as is by having such limited access to spellcasting (not to mention astral space in general; something else I take issue with). No sense to punish or deride them even more by harshing on their spirits.

Just so! That's why I wasn't hashing on their spirits. Frankly, I think that they should get some other benefit rather than the +2 to summoning, like beefier spirits or something.
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Falconer
post Aug 23 2009, 01:04 AM
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Yeah... it's hard to see ways to powergame aspected. It's one of the singularly worst negative qualities in the game. (for it's penalties it should be worth far more than 5 or 10 points... but they feel they can't make it more expensive than the mystic adept quality itself I believe).

About the only case of abuse I can see is a mystic adept who only takes mystic adept to take ranks in counterspelling or similar, then takes something like Enchanter or astral aspect w/ no intention of actually seriously buying up spellcasting or summoning ever, let alone paying a PP for astral sight.
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pbangarth
post Aug 23 2009, 04:54 AM
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"Why a dog licks his ....*.... because he can."

The above hail of aspersions cast at the use of Aspected Magician to help create a cheesy/broken character got me to thinking about what could be done, and how egregiously. Below is a character that dances all around the cheese/munch border. He is presented here just to give people something to revile. Not the worst of all possible cheese-munches, though, I'm sure. He took about an hour to whip up.

He does bring up a couple of 'cheese-level' (if I understand Kerenshara correctly) questions, though.

1) If a Magician is aspected to one kind of spell, say Health, and therefore has only Health spells; and he has Spellcasting (Health) 3(5), is the number of spells to which he is limited at character generation 6 (based on the general Spellcasting of 3) or 10 (based on his one and only type of spell, Health)?

2) If a Magician is aspected to one kind of spirit, say Man, and therefore can summon only that kind of spirit; and he has Summoning (Man) 3(5), then at character generation is the limit for the number of services a bound spirit he brings with him 3 (based on the general Summoning of 3) or 5 (based on the one and only type of spirit he can summon)?

Here's the character, a mystic adept Voodoo tradition (Yeah, that too!) aspected to Health/Spirits of Man. Drain dice for Summoning: up to 24. Drain dice for Spellcasting: up to 22. Sustaining focus and Heightened Concentration adept power overcome the negatives of sustaining Increase WIL and Increase CHA spells, allowing them to be at 8 and 12 respectively. So he can summon a Force 10 spirit to possess the troll guard, and resist the Drain pretty confidently.

And yes, he is aching to get Channeling, and more spells like the touch-range attack Health spells for the possessed troll to use on his erstwhile buddies. See... it can be fun!

[ Spoiler ]
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 23 2009, 05:33 AM
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How are any of those questions limited to aspected magicians? And why shouldn't they be able to specialize their skills any less than a full magician? /boggle
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Rasumichin
post Aug 23 2009, 10:51 AM
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The problem with the build is wether the character could even use his spells while posessed.
See, the spirit's Special Attributes replace that of the vessel, as has been once more made clear in a recent discussion on this board (the thread about posessed technomancers).
This includes Magic (and may also interrupt active foci, as the Magic attribute is replaced by that of someone who has not bound the foci).
So strictly speaking, the only way for a posessed mage to cast or sustain spells would be projecting astrally before being posessed and during the posession.
If you suffer -4 (or even -6) to any astral skills, this is not the best tactic in the book.
If he wasn't Aspected, it would be a good tactic to stay in astral space during the posession and heal and buff the spirit from there (which works fine, as the spirit is a Dual Being while posessing).
But when the character is as vulnerable on the astral as any aspected, but not astrally aspected magician inevitably is, this may lead to trouble.

Moreover, the character is extremely frail when not posessed (and Combat Paralysis may make it difficult to whistle up a spirit in time).
Posession can make characters obscenely powerful (in fact, the whole group if you powergame it right- an average mage improves his own abilities, a clever mage makes the whole team stronger), but when you rely too strongly on it, you basically beg for terrible things to happen.
While powergaming is a lot about eleminating redundancies, focussing too strongly on that aspect leaves holes in the character's defenses big enough to drive a Citymaster through it.

High BGC, surprise attacks, mana static, has no spirits left and taken a lot of damage already, severely warded area and so on- not the most frequent situations for an everyday citizen, but the kinds of situations runners tend to find themselves in omce in a while.

Any character concept relying on temporary benefits such as posession, buffs etc. should involve at least the possibility for a plan B.


So if i wanted to build an aspected magician from a posession tradition, i'd keep two things in mind :
-design the concept so that the character can stay inside his own body while posessed
-design the concept so that the character is able to survive while unposessed
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Ravor
post Aug 23 2009, 03:25 PM
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As an aside, what do people think should happen if an "expert aspected mage" ( -6/+2 ) buys off the flaw?
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Stahlseele
post Aug 23 2009, 03:32 PM
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Becomes Regular mage and has to take specialisation for his knack?
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 23 2009, 04:59 PM
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The same thing that happens to everyone else; he loses all characteristics of the flaw. Including the +2.
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pbangarth
post Aug 23 2009, 05:50 PM
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In throwing together that aspected character, I tried not to put too fine a point on it, and ended up dulling the message. As has been aptly pointed out above, anything that can be done to cheese/break an aspected character can be done to a regular magician as well.

I would have done a fair bit more tweaking and thinking about the character before I would have presented him as anything more than an example of the above thesis. Probably I would have replaced Combat Paralysis and Incompetence with Sensitive System and Spirit Bane(non-Man). That would have addressed some of Rasumichin's comments and raised a whole new battalion of irate complaints.

Nevertheless, I don't think the presented character who is focused on Health Spells and Possession is necessarily all that vulnerable before he acquires Channeling. His purpose is not to attack directly, that's what spirits are for, and so there is no need for him to even remotely try to be in the line of fire. Multiple initiative passes, full defense and magical armor combine to help him survive, even with Combat Paralysis. Not guarantee, but help. And his spells are indeed there to 'buff' the party as a whole.

The presented character is indeed flawed and I don't want to argue ad infinitum about his relative strengths and or weaknesses. I just think Aspecting is nothing to be amazed or upset about.
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Red-ROM
post Aug 23 2009, 08:13 PM
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I think the main boost to an aspected magician is the focus of BP's, trying to get decent numbers in every magic skill is a black hole. if you drop the spellcasting, I bet your summoning would be remarkably higher than your full mage counterparts. Or you drop summoning, and get twice the spells you would have otherwise. plus a 5 bp kicker.
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 23 2009, 09:21 PM
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It's still a penalty in that a full magician can do exactly the same thing, but the door isn't closed for them if they want to branch out in the future.

Note that as both a GM and a player, I absolutely hate the option to buy off negative qualities and do not allow it in my games except in the most extreme of circumstances. They should be a serious consequence for both the player and the character, not something they know they can shed whenever they want to.
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Red-ROM
post Aug 23 2009, 11:40 PM
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i agree, but thats whay a character that takes the aspected quality should have no intention of buying it off. thats when its not worth it. if you designed your character to be aspected, then there is nothing wrong with the quality.
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Kerenshara
post Aug 24 2009, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 23 2009, 04:21 PM) *
It's still a penalty in that a full magician can do exactly the same thing, but the door isn't closed for them if they want to branch out in the future.

Note that as both a GM and a player, I absolutely hate the option to buy off negative qualities and do not allow it in my games except in the most extreme of circumstances. They should be a serious consequence for both the player and the character, not something they know they can shed whenever they want to.

Depends on the negative quality in question, IMHO. Some are pretty permanent. But in the case of the non-specialized (0/-4 as opposed to the +2/-6) aspected mage, it could just represent a block on their Talent... say "Sorcery" or "Conjuror" because they were overly focused early on in their studies, or they have some sort of mental "block". But if it's totem related? Everything totem-er, mentor spirit related is for life and aspecting to your totem should probably be too, but with enough role-playing effort, that can be overcome eventually too if you and the GM agree. I generally would say not in that case, though. Allergies are for life. Bad habbits and addictions can be overcome. Incompetence represents some other kind of block, and it's more subjective. If you role-play killing the enemy, and make sure they don't have somebody else to pick up the torch, I don't see why you couldn't buy it off. Day jobs can be "lost".

In short, it's going to depend entirely on the quality and the circumstance. But I wouldn't just ban removal unilaterally, unless we didn't expect the PCs to live long anyway.
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Ravor
post Aug 24 2009, 09:42 PM
Post #50


Cybernetic Blood Mage
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I don't know, with the various gene tech floating around I don't see why allergies couldn't be fixed.
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