 Pistol adepts - still viable? |
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  Sep 4 2009, 07:52 AM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,768 Joined: 31-October 08 From: Redmond (Yes, really) Member No.: 16,558  |
I haven't seen pistol adepts mentioned in a while. Are they still viable? What are the pros and cons?
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Sep 4 2009, 09:30 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 704 Joined: 20-November 06 From: The seemingly unknown area of land between Seattle and Idaho. Member No.: 9,910 |
I don't see why not. After all when you have creative cambatants with insane dice pools you could have an adept who uses nothing but Fichetti Tiffani Needlers and still kick major ass.
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Sep 4 2009, 10:02 AM
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#3
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
Even though Improved Ability has been nerfed a while back they should still work.
Combat Sense 5, Improved Reflexes 2, Muscle Toner 4 (with Restricted Gear), Ambidexterity and Pistols 5-6 should be a good start. Personally I would go for Automatics for the added versatility but Pistols can be kick ass too. |
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Sep 4 2009, 05:30 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 4 2009, 06:02 AM)  Even though Improved Ability has been nerfed a while back they should still work. Combat Sense 5, Improved Reflexes 2, Muscle Toner 4 (with Restricted Gear), Ambidexterity and Pistols 5-6 should be a good start. Personally I would go for Automatics for the added versatility but Pistols can be kick ass too. That's just mean right there, you can further augment that with weapon modifications from Arsenal. |
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Sep 4 2009, 05:58 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,768 Joined: 31-October 08 From: Redmond (Yes, really) Member No.: 16,558 |
Why not use synaptic boosters? Expensive as fuck, I know, but what else are you going to be spending nuyen on after you start?
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Sep 4 2009, 06:06 PM
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#6
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
Why should that "concept" not be viable any more?
Smartlink doesn't cost essence any more <.< |
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Sep 4 2009, 06:08 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,768 Joined: 31-October 08 From: Redmond (Yes, really) Member No.: 16,558 |
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 4 2009, 11:06 AM) Why should that "concept" not be viable any more? Smartlink doesn't cost essence any more <.< Dicepool caps, esp. the improved ability nerf. |
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Sep 4 2009, 06:10 PM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Because you just dropped almost 50 BP on 2 IPs instead of 30 on the MAG that is more likely to be upgraded than your boosters (which would also take another hit to your MAG later) plus you don't get the +4 AGI from the toner without further lowering your MAG.
Take a human with 5 AGI 5 REA (and wherever else you want points) using the above stats. You can have 9 AGI and 7 REA with +5 dice on ranged attacks, then add in 5 pistols + smartlink + specialization and you have 18 dice to shoot with and 12 to defend with. Take yourself a nice Super Warhawk mod in a smartlink, fire mode change SA, increased cylinder, personalized grips, ammo skip system, and barrel extension, for a MERE 1900 nuyen, throw in some EX-EX (and maybe some shots of other stuff, you can skip as a free action) And you have a gun doing 7P AP-3 RC 1 SS/SA rolling 18 dice. Want to dual wield them? No problem, Now you have 9 dice for each (14/2 + 2), still a respectable pool for 2 guns, and I'm still being as efficient with points as possible by not dumping AGI up to 6 and pistols to 6 or 7. |
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Sep 4 2009, 06:42 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 155 Joined: 20-August 09 From: Fridley, MN, USA Member No.: 17,522 |
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Sep 4 2009, 01:10 PM) Because you just dropped almost 50 BP on 2 IPs instead of 30 on the MAG that is more likely to be upgraded than your boosters (which would also take another hit to your MAG later) plus you don't get the +4 AGI from the toner without further lowering your MAG. Take a human with 5 AGI 5 REA (and wherever else you want points) using the above stats. You can have 9 AGI and 7 REA with +5 dice on ranged attacks, then add in 5 pistols + smartlink + specialization and you have 18 dice to shoot with and 12 to defend with. Take yourself a nice Super Warhawk mod in a smartlink, fire mode change SA, increased cylinder, personalized grips, ammo skip system, and barrel extension, for a MERE 1900 nuyen, throw in some EX-EX (and maybe some shots of other stuff, you can skip as a free action) And you have a gun doing 7P AP-3 RC 1 SS/SA rolling 18 dice. Want to dual wield them? No problem, Now you have 9 dice for each (14/2 + 2), still a respectable pool for 2 guns, and I'm still being as efficient with points as possible by not dumping AGI up to 6 and pistols to 6 or 7. A money saving option: simply dual-wield Super Warhawks firing in SS mode - fire one, then the other, one, then the other, etc... and you don't need to modify them beyond a smartlink at all, unless you want the increased cylinder. |
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Sep 4 2009, 06:46 PM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
It doesn't save that much money at chargen, and if you're looking to be "badass" firing them both twice a round is pretty stylish (*tacks on distinctive style and signature*). Again, I was just working off the top of my head as to why they can still be viable, and more importantly, why you don't want the synaptic boosters.
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Sep 4 2009, 06:52 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 155 Joined: 20-August 09 From: Fridley, MN, USA Member No.: 17,522 |
I actually drew up a Gunslinger bio-Adept for a different thread recently. Not min-maxed for combat per se, but still throws 18 dice around with Pistols and gets the full 3 IPs. I'll add it here, just for a sample of what I think is a still-viable Gunslinger Adept.
[ Spoiler ]
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Sep 4 2009, 07:00 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
For the record, you aren't going to need a seperate liscense for each firearm, my understanding is that it would work similar to a Carry/Conceal permit today. Unless of course you are carrying any Forbidden gear on you (I'm looking at you EX-EX ammo) which would need a military grade liscense/permit. Ammo skip system could make for fun russian roulette as an intimidation technique as well if they are unaware of it... hmm...
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Sep 4 2009, 07:07 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 155 Joined: 20-August 09 From: Fridley, MN, USA Member No.: 17,522 |
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Sep 4 2009, 02:00 PM) For the record, you aren't going to need a seperate liscense for each firearm, my understanding is that it would work similar to a Carry/Conceal permit today. Not too sure on that one - the Gunslinger archetype in SR4A (p. 104) only has the one fake gun license, but it does specify which sort of gun it's for. So, I'm just playing it safe and picking up a license for each type of gun... EDIT: Heh... found a more definitive answer - the Street Samurai archetype a few pages later has a different license for each gun, even of the same type. EDIT EDIT: The relevant rule: QUOTE (SR4A, p. 332) Fake License: For those who don’t want to go through the standard legal channels, a fake license for all kinds of restricted items (Legality, p. 313) or activities (hunting, concealed carry, spellcasting, etc.)—as appropriate to the jurisdiction—can be obtained through the black market. Each type of item/activity requires a separate license. I read that as saying each type of gun that you want to carry needs its own license, and you need a concealed carry license on top of that if you want to carry them around with you 'legally'. |
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Sep 4 2009, 07:10 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 3-May 09 From: Somewhere in the hick woods of CAS (Get me Outta here!) Member No.: 17,131 |
If you want a 'Scary' Gun-Adept, you need to look into 2 metamagics: Adept Centering & Attunement (Item). That and the dice splitting rules for two guns at once.
Your pair of attuned SMGs can't have smartlink because of Attunement, but after your second Initiation you really, really, won't care any more (and it doesn't work when you dual fire your guns anyways). Once you hit Grade 4+, you will be Very very scary when you split dice for multiple short bursts in a round. It effectively adds double your grade in dice to EACH split dice pool, you can do it starting at Grade 2, and it goes up from there (after a while Centering stops having enough penalties to negate and it's not double anymore, but at that point I mention again, you will no longer care). Something I stumbled across when I started working on revising the Adept power rules (who aside from edge cases such as this, are strictly inferior I've found as Samurai, they make excellent ninjas & skill-masters however). |
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Sep 4 2009, 07:10 PM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
QUOTE (DarkKindness @ Sep 4 2009, 02:07 PM) Not too sure on that one - the Gunslinger archetype in SR4A (p. 104) only has the one fake gun license, but it does specify which sort of gun it's for. So, I'm just playing it safe and picking up a license for each type of gun... EDIT: Heh... found a more definitive answer - the Street Samurai archetype a few pages later has a different license for each gun, even of the same type. Wow, that's bass-ackwards. Move along, these are not the droids you are looking for. |
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Sep 4 2009, 07:14 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
QUOTE (Alexand @ Sep 4 2009, 02:10 PM) If you want a 'Scary' Gun-Adept, you need to look into 2 metamagics: Adept Centering & Attunement (Item). That and the dice splitting rules for two guns at once. Your pair of attuned SMGs can't have smartlink because of Attunement, but after your second Initiation you really, really, won't care any more (and it doesn't work when you dual fire your guns anyways). Once you hit Grade 4+, you will be Very very scary when you split dice for multiple short bursts in a round. It effectively adds double your grade in dice to EACH split dice pool, you can do it starting at Grade 2, and it goes up from there (after a while Centering stops having enough penalties to negate and it's not double anymore, but at that point I mention again, you will no longer care). Something I stumbled across when I started working on revising the Adept power rules (who aside from edge cases such as this, are strictly inferior I've found as Samurai, they make excellent ninjas & skill-masters however). Aside from fire select, clip dropping, and ammo skipping on revolvers, the smartlink doesn't provide bonuses while dual-wielding anyway, neither do laser sights. Also, I think I'd be more afraid of a Sam w/ dual SMGs + gas vents on cyberarms with high AGI and cyberarm gyromounts, possibly huge STR as well for optional recoil comp. |
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Sep 4 2009, 07:32 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 3-May 09 From: Somewhere in the hick woods of CAS (Get me Outta here!) Member No.: 17,131 |
I definately think I would be more afraid of the Adept, assuming he had a decently high initiation grade. After all, he's Short Bursting me in the eyes (While he's also negating the Recoil, Range, & Visibility penalties with Centering), and he's doing it 4 times an initiative pass with a +2-5 dice bonus from his gun which is apllied after splitting his dice pool. Smartlink provides a measly +2 dice, and negates only 1 point of range penalties.
That's up to 8 attacks a round of highly damaging burst fire, and if he's got the Grade for it, all of them can be very nasty called shots. But like I said it's an Edge case. The dual cyberarm Street Sam can start with his trick from Chargen I believe. The Adept has to build for his, and initiate several times with Karma. Not happening at the start of game unless your under a very nice GM & the Karmagen system. If you allow the optional Strength negates recoil rules, the Sam catches up a bit, but it's hard to overcome the bonus that Attune (Item) gives. |
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Sep 4 2009, 08:13 PM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
It comes down to the old "adepts are hyper-specialized, sams are general killing machines". They are both totally viable, my problem with both that are made as pure killing machines is lack of other options, damn me for trying to make well rounded chars. *slaps self*
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Sep 4 2009, 08:30 PM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 3-May 09 From: Somewhere in the hick woods of CAS (Get me Outta here!) Member No.: 17,131 |
Yeah, I totally get you there. That's why I called it an edge case.
I also forgot a short burst is a simple action. So the adept gets 16 attacks, knocking his grade off in penalties on each roll. I did get Attune (item) wrong a little. It's 1/2 Grade dice bonus, not Grade. Still awesome, just not pants-on-head broken. But yeah, the Dual SMG Sniper Adept & the Elemental Fist Melee monster are the only two adept combat builds I've seen that equal or exceed a decently built Sam. As I said both are edge cases, as you need multiple initiations, and to be very specialized for both builds. The Sam on the other hand can compete with both, AND be a generalist/well-rounded. It's part of my problem with the Combat Adept powers. There just is no keeping up when you can just get bio/cyber much cheaper. Both builds above would likely use some Bio just because it's less points, and thus they get to the broken point faster. I much prefer more rounded PCs myself, as well. |
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Sep 4 2009, 09:36 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 8-November 07 Member No.: 14,097 |
QUOTE (Alexand @ Sep 4 2009, 03:10 PM) [Item Attunement and Adept Centering] effectively adds double your grade in dice to EACH split dice pool, you can do it starting at Grade 2, and it goes up from there Item Attunement only adds half your initiate grade (rounded up, I assume). Also, you can initiate a number of items equal to your initiate grade, but you "may not receive benefits from more than one attuned item in a single action," (SM p54) so you'd only get the bonus to one hand. |
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Sep 4 2009, 10:19 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,768 Joined: 31-October 08 From: Redmond (Yes, really) Member No.: 16,558 |
Assuming I don't get synaptic boosters - and I do see your point - what would you recommend for the .2 (if I get standard toner) or .38 (if I get alpha) Essence I have left to spend?
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Sep 4 2009, 10:50 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
QUOTE (Tyro @ Sep 4 2009, 05:19 PM) Assuming I don't get synaptic boosters - and I do see your point - what would you recommend for the .2 (if I get standard toner) or .38 (if I get alpha) Essence I have left to spend? Datajack, smartlink, preferrably alpha. Also, just playing around I was able to make a sam, who can throw 20 dice with an LMG that's been smartlinked, and, in the case of the whiteknight, is taking no recoil (5 + 1(brace) + 3 (cyberarm gyromount)) and can still throw a respectable 16 dice with an automatic taking no recoil either, all legal within chargen, and gets 9 dice to defend or 15 on a full dodge. Also, said character has effectively rating 4 skillwires as well for other needs. Move-by-wire is like cheating though, heh. /edit - for even more fun, add on a foregrip, High Velocity, and reduced weight (to make it more believable as "man portable") and watch it tear people up with an effective RC of 10. |
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Sep 4 2009, 11:30 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,768 Joined: 31-October 08 From: Redmond (Yes, really) Member No.: 16,558 |
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Sep 4 2009, 03:50 PM) Datajack, smartlink, preferrably alpha. Also, just playing around I was able to make a sam, who can throw 20 dice with an LMG that's been smartlinked, and, in the case of the whiteknight, is taking no recoil (5 + 1(brace) + 3 (cyberarm gyromount)) and can still throw a respectable 16 dice with an automatic taking no recoil either, all legal within chargen, and gets 9 dice to defend or 15 on a full dodge. Also, said character has effectively rating 4 skillwires as well for other needs. Move-by-wire is like cheating though, heh. Why not a skinlink and trodes? Guns still unhackable, and I could wear the trodes as a headband. What about an attention coprocessor? Reakt geneware? Reaction enhancers? Sams are all well and good, but you can't use an LMG in many places (noisy/obvious), and MBW will send up all sorts of red flags from scanning systems. |
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Sep 4 2009, 11:36 PM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Chances are anyone over the age of 20 has a datajack from before the crash. That's just my fluff side, plus a DNI is useful. Heck, if you wanted to throw the BP around you could have Type O, take lower toner, and get TONS of bioware, replace the 2 dice you lost from AGI with a skill recorder and enhanced articulation, maybe throw in a sleep regulator, cereberal booster, etc. Go wild. I was giving a baseline example of ridiculous. Throwing 12+ dice is perfectly good, throwing near 20 is godlike and, in my opinion, should be outside the realm for starting characters. My GM and I play this merry-go-round often though.
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Sep 5 2009, 02:22 AM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Throwing 20 dice or so for a single skill is not really that hard to do, nor does it significantly limit the character's potential versatility. It's only when you get even higher than that where you begin to limit yourself. It's a matter of playstyle, though. Some people concentrate on combat, with just enough to get by in other areas, not because they are a raging munchkin, but because they aren't terribly interested in those other areas.
Concentrating mainly on combat, you can create some formidable characters, but even for a pure combat guy, you don't want to get too hyperspecialized. Combat doesn't boil down to dice pool alone. It also involves versatility (you are great with a pistol, but those security guards are packing Ares Alphas! You down one of them... can you pick up that assault rifle to return fire, or are you stuck plinking at them with a weaker weapon with far less range?). It involves sneaking around, it involves being alert for ambushes, it involves initiative passes, and it involves the character's ability to both dodge, and soak, damage. Bio-adepts are still badass, but with qualities like born rich, restricted gear, and genetic heritage, the sammies can be equally badass now. The adept still has a higher dice pool, but when you're comparing 23 dice vs. the sammie's 21 dice, it's not as significant a difference as the sammie's greater toughness and versatility. |
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