I can see no good reason for a jedi tradition to be possession or use spirits at all. That's just pure cheese.

The spirits which do show up are best termed 'free spirits', since they're all 'ghosts' not summoned by the caster but appearing to him out of their own free will.

In fact, the culmination of the path is transcending your physical form and turning yourself into a free spirit I'd say.


Also, I hate how whenever any custom tradition comes up... automatically the most powerfull spirits are all suggested for the weakest of fluff reasons. Even in this case, where there's no real case for using spirits at all. The magical mechanic doesn't use them, and the there's no good call for it from the philosophy.


Really, the whole thing needs to swing around the jedi philosophy. Towards that end, they're real big on 'feeling the force' which is probably a form of astral perception/aura rading bonus. Also, their magic is pretty much exclusively health, manipulation, and detection, for jedi. Sith yeah force lightning... but can't really think of any other elemental attack spells.

Another problem is how do the whole Light-side/Dark-Side points come into play.

Probably best done as an aspected adept.

Falconer,

If you read some of the latest novels as well as read the current batch of Star Wars RPG books, you'll find that a lot more Force Traditions exist than what are typically shown as Jedi / Sith. Each of those traditions has things that are not normally found in other traditions; other ways of using the Force.

Just a thought. There is no reason to be limited to just what the movies show unless you are trying for a movie Jedi / Sith.

A jedi would work since there was such a thing as a Grey Jedi who did not follow the Light Side or the Dark Side of The Force. Grey Jedis My favourite Jedi was Quinlan Vos because he was more than anything a wildcard when it came to The Force. Following all of the roads The Force had at different times of his life. By my oppinion he was a true Grey Jedi.

Could be, I myself would not be prone to demand it though. Although sparce in the movies themselves (just the one with Yodas evil leason teaching swamp) there are a number of referances throuout the remaining materials of what would be aspected mana site and powerful maifestations - the weaker of which could be commanded and banished - I can see this being more of a role playing hinderance rather the an actual inability. Low force spirit being near useless in there lack of will and drive and at any higher force ratings have them be willful to the point of it being between stupid and reckless to summon them. These spirits all claim to be the great powers of the Jedi/ Sith form the distanct past and refuse to bend to your will (if I'm recalling my time lines in some cases over 25000 years ago, can anyone say the second and fourth world?)
Oh and of course your Jedi will be loath to summon in the first place.
Slavery is Wrong.
I would agree aspected mages and incompetent conjerors would be common - just not required
Guardian and guidance I can't really fault for selections - Guardians and Counsilors
Beasts I see being re-invisioned as "Alien creatures" getting the summoner all manner of "what is that?" weirdos
Spirits of man could be replaced with one of the elementals fairly easily, I'd have a slant for air or water, no I don't have a rational reason I just like water elementals, sue me.
Although I could easily take Task and handwave it as Sentinals it doesn't feel right... somehow. But I really don't have a better fit.
But its neither here nor there is they are all free willed being who fight and perhaps often resent your control - if I recall correctly many such being were activaly evil, seeking to posses those around them to rejoin the living. Even going so far as to assume a 50/50 split half the time the spirit is going to use edge to resist to try to knock you out and possessor kill you (depending if you go possesion, materialzation or "weird"(yes I'm willing to make up a new class of spirits for a tradition, aren't you?)).

When a Jedi dies in Star Wars, their spirit does not hang around or persist. The ghost like manifestations are a result of how deeply connected to the force they are, and how connected the Jedi are who see the apparations. The force knew Yoda's thoughts, so it used Yoda to speak to Luke, but eventually the manifestations dispersed permenantly when Luke did not need them anymore. (see novels)

Mainly the idea is, their appearance depends greatly on the Jedi who sees them. Just as spirits appearance is affected by the caster who summons them. But either way, they can be best imitated by spirits in shadowrun.

Also, in a world where you are capable of summoning spirits, you are not going to say 'There werent many spirits in Star Wars, so I will just not summon any', but more likely you are going to say, 'Wow, spirits are a great asset to me. How can I summon them in a way that closest resembles my tradition'.


Elemental spirits just didnt fit. Sorry. Air was the best, because it was the least apparent, and I had to pick 5. In my opinion, the Guardian is definately the overpowered super pimp spirit that every summoner wants, but the other spirits are all very useful compared to each other.

What 5 make better sense to you?



Some jedi are very adept at feeling the force, some are not. Substitute Manipulation bonus with a detection bonus if it fits your style.

You listed health, manipulation and detection, so you are excluding Illusion and Combat.

Combat: Clout and Lightning. VERY common among Jedi. Even many Light Side force users use Lightning sometimes, its just a slippery slope.

Illusion: Are you kidding? Jedi use invisibility, physical masks, all sorts of mind tricks. If you are a star wars fan, I recommend reading I, Jedi. The Jedi, Corran Horn, is an expert at creating Illusions, and is completely inept at levitation type magic. In the book he uses the force to shroud his face in shadow, to make himself appear larger, to make someone not see that he is there, and once to hide the sound and color of a Maglock so the person thought it was rejecting their code.

You know, you mentioned uncommon, but there was at LEAST one instance (in canon literature, aluded to in Episode V) where a force-spirit possesed Luke Skywalker - "I can not help you this time" says Obi Wan before Luke flys to Bespin to face Darth Vader. He posessed Luke in book that takes place between Episodes IV and V and defeats Vader in lightsaber combat... well, drives him off, anyhow. And during the trench run on the first Death Star, Obi Wan's a "guidance" spirit posessing Luke at least long enought to help him along just a tad. Or at least, you could look at it that way. The point was, it's not as much a stretch as some people might think. I like aspected to sorcery, even to the point of +2/-6. It's HARD to bring down a Force Spirit unless you're REALLY good. And the slippery slope is one thing, but Force Lightning wasn't taught by the Jedi Academy at all. It was essentially a Sith specialty - you had to be able to draw, focus and channel enough hate and rage to make it work. Now, Force Push (Ram) is workable. Levitate is a BIG specialty. Heck, Luke even demonstrated the net penalties for maintaing multiple spells when Yoda was on his foot (doing a one-hand stand) and he lifted a couple of rocks AND R2-D2!

You know, the more I look at it, the more I like it and the better it seems to fit.

What would Limited Astral Projection come across as? Assuming you took it across from 3E, anyway. I seem to remember force sight or something in one of the KOTOR games, covering perception.

Actually there was a jedi equivalent to force lightning called Electric Judgment. I really like this and with GM permission I may use it in my next game.

In the Light Side Sourcebook for the Star Wars RPG (Not the Saga edition), there was discussion about how a certain Jedi Master knew how to use Force Lightning and indicated it *WAS* possible to use it without falling to the Dark Side.

His premise? If the Jedi acts in accordance with the Will of the Force, then no action is Dark or Light. It simply is. Just like the Force. The text indicated that many Masters disagreed with his viewpoint but they were unable to find any hint of darkness within that Master despite his use of Force Lightning.

The interesting thing is that the deeper you dig into Star Wars lore, the more hypocrisy you see among different factions, especially in those that would be labeled 'Good'. There's certainly enough 'Do as I say, not as I do'.

In the Novel 'I, Jedi' Luke skywalker puts the students in body-temperature water and has them meditate, then they leave their bodies and look down on the planet from high in the sky.

Later in that book, a Force Spirit pulls Corran astrally across the Galaxy into an enemy ship, through it (people cannot see them as they pass) to show him where his wife is being held.

Astral projection is a talent most Jedi never learn, but I think that is because so many of them are Mystic Adepts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Don't Yoda and Dooku have a force-lightning duel in Episode 3 (or one of the new ones, my memory for which is which sucks) before deciding that it's going to end in a draw and sabering it out? I'm confident Yoda can use lightning.

Also, just comparing the percentage of statements that are A. honestly true, B. factually true but incomplete or C. lies, you'll find the Sith and the Jedi line up pretty similarly.

For what it's worth, I think in that one Yoda was catching Dooku's lightning and throwing it back at him, "using your enemy's aggression" and that sort of thing, not making the lightning himself.

Dooku. Jesus, what a stupid name. *sighs* Stupid new trilogy.

But at any rate, it's precisely this sort of conversation that makes me not want to see Jedi outside of, well, Star Wars. There's so much in the "canon" that you can pick and choose and create just about any sort of Force-Wielder you want to, even while still calling yourself a Jedi...at what point should a Shadowrun GM have to act like a Star Wars scholar, poring over dusty Lucas tomes to see what's appropriate for a Jedi in his game, while a player justifies, finds loopholes, and argues the semantics of the Light/Dark side, all in order to pick spells and abilities for a Shadowrun game?

If we -- a bunch of geeks, to be sure, but not really specialized hardcore Star Wars geeks -- can't agree on what powers are appropriate for a generic Jedi to use, and to be a part of a belief system so strongly that magic is channeled in a certain way...who should? How is it fair or fun to expect your GM to be up on Shadowrun enough to run it, but also to spend time catering to Star Wars lore in an attempt to keep stuff balanced, etc, etc?

I dunno. It just seems like it'd be a pain in the butt, to me. I get mildly irritated when folks try to recreate Wolverine or Spider-Man (or whoever else just had a movie come out), too. I like to keep my Shadowrun a certain way, and save other characters for when I'm playing in an appropriate game -- Star Wars, or Champions, or whatever.

Who said anything about catering to Star Wars? Most other mages will think he's a delusional freak. The movies are probably, by 2070, near forgotton "Classic Cinema" only known to a few fringe people if not actually lost and the movie refeances he keeps breaking out in game will be contantly causing him social penalties.
This is more or less the process for ANY magical tradition and I'd do about the same amount of research, 10 minutes on the Wiki, complicated by the fact that it is also popular culture and of minor interest to me.
Anyone actually approching me with such a build would get some disbelief to start followed by "Are you sure? No really, are you SURE?" and then a quick chat to make sure they are on the same page as me for the game proper (this is a Cyberpunk game yes? you won't fit in, yes? Ok.)
And then I'd have a hell of a good time making the world make fun of him and his adherance to a "dead religion" till they, in the darkest of hours, needed him most... mmm, stories...

Either that or he force chokes them "I find your lack of faith disturbing" and we all get to laugh till I kill him with hubris

You'd probably get the same kinda back and forth going on for nearly any magical tradition someone attemted to pitch here.

Yeah, most characters in the group I play my Jedi in have no Star Wars knowledge. Fortunately, my Jedi has a high Intuition, Charisma and Logic, and is therefore not rediculous about his Jedi skills. He knows in truth that he uses Magic and not the force, and that there is no Coruscant, and he will likely not find a wookie (wait, huge hairy beasts that cant speak... Ok ok, maybe he may find a Wendigo named Chubacca some day:)

His tradition is his philosophy, and his practice of Jedi type abilities is simply his style. With his magic knowledge skill, he is able to understand that he is a Mystic Adept with spells that resemble powers from Star Wars, and not actually a Jedi.... so he does not bore NPC's or players with Star Wars trivia and quotes. He simply lives by a philosophy similar to the Jedi, favors swordfighting with a possessed sword with a Light Engery Aura on it, protecting himself with a deflect spell that he mimes is really deflecting bullets with his sword even though it actually isnt, and occaisionally accidentally calls drones 'Droids'.

1. I was responding to the OP's post about a 'JEDI' tradition. not a sith one, not a force witch, or whatever.
2. I'm not a star wars nutjob. I've only seen the movies and played the current and former RPG (and am reasonably familiar w/ what's in there).
3. I'm not the wookiepedia... I've only looked at it now and then for the RPG. But novels are very poor source material given the LARGE degree of literary license taken by the authors. It's like reading some of the old DnD novels, great stories, but anyone who played the game realized magic didn't work like that in play. (much more free form in the novels)
4. Great way to torque off SW types is to insist that bringing balance to the force means ending the jedi dictatorship and reestablishing the sith :). (great fun cause they argue about Lucas's hippie type statements).


In the case of a *JEDI*. I can't say that I can see them being magicians. They're practically pure adepts. Maybe w/ a few very weak spell knacks for mystic adept, but the number of spells is very limited. Compared to using powers like say 'commanding voice', and a lot of the self-buffs could be done up as custom made adept powers or metamagics (like their short burst super-speed movement). Also a lot of the metamagics available w/ initiation make a lot of sense (such as adept centering, divining, psychometry, and sensing).

I cannot see them summoning spirits, though I CAN see them interacting w/ them. However, those spirits I would call 'free spirits'. They're not summoned or bound, but acting of their own free will (for boon or bane). I do agree that those free spirits do seem to be possession types.

Or are you arguing that Luke 'bound' Obi?. You argue the trench run is possession, I say it's adept centering + ability boost (agility). (he stopped 'rigging' the x-wing w/ the computerized controls and started actually flying it switching from command+gunnery to agility + gunnery).

And leaving the body astral projection style... it sounds exactly like an astral metaplanar quest. (which you can drag your buddies along with now in SR4). They don't need to be able to project themselves (don't remember if it's drugs and/or guidance great form power which allows that).


Illusions, I've NEVER seen an illusion jedi power. Only mind-rape tricks. "this is not th droid you're looking for" indeed. Not putting an enchantment on the droid which makes everyone think it's a dancing chihuaha. The force use is spent on specified viewers. Even putting that up, where would you see a 'physical' illusion in the movies/rpg? I never have.

In fact, some of the more recent RPG books have had GM's balk at the jedi powers... phasing for example... okay so let me get this straight the jedi can now phase through solid matter... making it nigh impossible to imprison a jedi if he's built right.


I just don't see the crossing of jedi SR and SW mechanics. As far as other traditions, who knows. Maybe some of the other traditions are better picks. Trying to justify a lot of the bits which make up a magician tradition are quite a bit of a stretch, and really hard to pull off unless your GM is also a star wars addict.

Best example of a Physical Illusion in Star Wars is in the Original (Episode 4, A New Hope)...
Ben is sneaking around the Death Star, He has just turned of the Main Tractor Beam Controls, and is confronted with an obstacle of 2 Stormtroopers... He motions and a noise sounds behind them, they both turn around and he moves off...

Aural Illusions are still Illusions... They are just not Visible...

It makes for an interesting Magical Tradition, nor more odd than Zoroastrianism or Chaos Theory... All are equally viable as magical traditions in Shadowrun...

Keep the Faith

Falconer. While I agree that there are some silly powers in the Star Wars Saga edition, generally speaking the different powers actually works pretty well, in my experience. I do sort of agree with you that it probably isn't real fitting to recreate an actual "Jedi/Sith" in SR, I can actually see it working. Picture this:

1) Imagine that someone in 2070 get's the idea that maybe George Lucas actually got a hold of some ancient literature concerning magic and older magical traditions from some of the previous ages, and based on that created his movie version Jedi and Sith traditions.
2) Let go of what you've seen in the Star Wars movies and read in the different novels and RPG's.
3) Forget the concepts of Jedi and Sith in the traditional Star Wars sense.
4) Look at the philosophies on their own merit, and think of "the Force" as "Magic/Mana".

What do you really have then? You have two philosophies on how to attain "enlightenment" and make use of an external supernatural "energy" that will allow you to perform a variety of actions. Would it really be so farfetched to have someone view spirits as simply an application of the magical forces that permeats the world? Forget about the exact wording about "Binding Spirits", and just view it as "creating a given effect through the use of magical energy". A SR "Jedi/Sith" wouldn't be "Binding a spirit and having it posses him, in order to imbue him with a given ability". He'd simply be using the magical forces of the world to allow augment him with a given power for a time. "Favours/Services" would not be a question of how many "jobs" he could command a given Spirit to perform for him. It would simply be a question of how skilled he would be at manipulating the magical forces in question. "Lightsabers"? Forget it. That's a movie prop thought up because Lucas needed something cool back in the late 1970'es. Given the time, what would be more cool than a "laser sword"? In reality he was probably just inspired by the ancient Japanese samurai and the relationship they had with their Katana.

As for which powers might be appropriate for a "Jedi" to have in the SR world? I have to disagree with you on your assesment that there are only a very limited number of suitable powers/spells that fit. I agree that it depends very much on how big a part of the Star Wars canon you look at, but just by including the movies and current Saga Edition RPG, I can find a quite fair number of powers and spells that I would find appropriate for a SR "Jedi" to posses. My biggest problem in that regard is that I see way to many of them!


P.S.
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding something about how Spirits work in SR, but to be honest, I have a significantly better understanding of Star Wars then I do of Shadowrun, having only been introduced to the game a couple of months ago.

Welcome to Dumpshock!

I think you will find that SR people are just as fervent and zealous about maintaining their universe as many SW fans. Personally, I think that playing a Jedi inspired character is perfectly fine. A "Jedi" magic tradition may be a bit of a stretch.
The knee jerk reaction was strong because SW has instant recognition and many people have strong opinions about the series (Trilogy and subsequent cash ins?). Also, the choices made in the tradition draft were, despite how well intentioned, exemplary of the cherry-picking seen in tradition forging.

If you want to tap into the source material for jedi, a Buddhist or Shinto Swordsman would be excellent.
An existentialist tradition French fencer would also be a hoot.

Thank you McCummhail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Believe me, it's no surprise that people here are protective of "their world" in the same manner that people are on other boards *LOL*

And arguably I agree. I don't believe that a "Jedi" or "Sith" as seen and perceived in Star Wars really fits into the SR setting, even if you could argue that an awakened geek that knows about Star Wars could use it as a template to his approach to magic.

The point I was trying to make, however, was essentially that if you look past all the different fluff that comes to mind when someone says "Star Wars" or "Jedi", using the "Jedi" or "Sith" codes as a template for a Mystic Adept or Mage, should actually be doable within the SR setting. Also without breaking significantly with the setting and official "feel" to it. If you just focus on the core philosophies and forget about the rest. Much as you say one might find inspiration from a Buddhist or Shinto Swordsman, or existentialist tradition French fencer.

As for the choices made concerning the tradition draft you refer to, that is one of the things I must admit that I still haven't quite gotten the hang of how works yet, and thus any evaluation of whether it's cherry-picking the best options is something I currently have a hard time spotting or commenting on. But in general I agree that it's always something to watch out for, if one is making any kind of custom/homemade addition to a particular game.

Anyway. 04.34am. Time to find the bed...

Honestly, it's impossible to pick 5 non-elemental spirits without picking all the good ones. They need to implement some combination of the following; go back and buff the first 6 so they're all even, or introduce some new, medicore non-elemental spirits that fit with traditions.

The other problem; what's the best representation of Combat? Well, fire is violent in that it destroys things, but Beasts have to fight to survive, don't they? Oh, wait, Guardian spirits are a much clearer representation of combat. What represents Detection? Air makes sense, because you see things through air, but water transmits sound and smell much faster than air, so maybe that works? Never mind, Guidance is obviously Detection-riffic. Same problem with Task and Manipulation. A greater variety of spirits (and changing the names so that there wasn't an obvious contender for a given category) would help a lot.

Please explain which 5 spirit types would fit better.

If I may attempt to explain a thought process that is not my own, here's my interpretation of McCummhail's statement; "If a person were cherry-picking, and I'm not saying you are, then those are the choices they'd make."

This is because your choices are A. the best choices for the tradition and B. the best choices mechanically.

Which is why the spirit selection is flawed.

I think a mind probe was used while I was sleeping.

Magic may be the area where the possibility of "Power Creep" is most apparent.
Street Magic presents a variety of mechanics that expand on magic, but most of those new things just happen to be hands down better than the previous items and others with tweaking far out-pace their predecessor.

Either a serious prescription of Homebrew is needed or a serious prescription of chill pills;
we need to fix the issues that don't work for our tables or accept it as is.

As long as there is only one "light infused saber" in my shadowrun I'm fine (which is a clever way to implement it).

Clear example of using force push, or levitation. He simply 'kicks the can'.
Either that, or he mind rapes the troopers... "did you hear that? let's investigate", so long as a few of them do... the rest will follow as they trust their squad mates. Also because I don't recall actually recall hearing anything happen, just the troopers are on patrol then one of them suddenly states words to that effect and off they go.

Nowhere near as cut and dried as you make it out as an illusion. That was my point earlier in the post.



Also to add something on the SW RPG. One thing which bothers me about it. If you're not a jedi or force-user, you've essentially hamstrung yourself heavily. There is also a large element of... if you're a force user you can use the force to do anything, BUT NOT in the manner of a task spirits power. You need to spend your talents to use the force to replace them w/ UTF (which is much more akin to metamagics than to spirit power). One of the most abusive characters I've ever seen in SW RPG was one who went w/ UTF, skill focus UTF... then started doing everything diplomacy, piloting, perception... everything using his massively boosted UTF rolls.


Odd thought... maybe jedi tradition is more like a tradition where you're aspected to assensing, possession tradition. with an ally spirit. You spend your karma to slowly enhance your possessing ally spirit. It's a completely different and slightly alien mechanic though compared to normal SR traditions.


On traditions:
I disagree, most traditions have their spirits picked BY THEIR PHILOSOPHY. NOT BY WHAT FITS WHAT ROLE (EG: guardian is clearly combat for all traditions!). Look at Wuxing (I think that's the chinese one), it's spirits are specifically the 4 or the 5 elements of chinese mythology. Water Earth Metal Fire and wood are the 5 fundamental elements of chinese worldview. (Just as air/earth/water/fire are those of the traditional alchemy/hermetic)

I also agree, that there should be far more than just a basic 6 (then 10 spirit types).

Sure you could interpret the scene a couple of ways, but with no items to "Kick" that were in line of sight of the audience, and the obvious "Click" provided by the Sound Effects, it seems obvious, to me any way, that it was an Aural Sound that they heard...

However, There have never been any "audible" cues (physical of course) to go with uses if Influence (The Mind Trick) and the Audible Cue for Force Push is vastly different



I would agree, this would be abusive and would not be tolerated at our table



Agreed... but you can, with a little creative interpretation, mask your traditions spirits "Names" to the appropriate published spirits

For example: Necromancy

One possible interpretation of Necromantic Tradition Spirits, There could be other Interpretations based upon Culture...

Combat: Death Spirits – The Reapers of the Damned (Beast (Harvesters), could also be Guardian or Guidance)
Detection: Ghosts - Ancestor Spirits (Guidance)
Health: Blood - Viscera Spirits (Water)
Illusion: Ghosts - Poltergeist Spirits (Air)
Manipulation: Specter - Malevolent Spirits (Man)

I do agree that your TRADITION should dictate Spirit Type... it is clear that the Standard Hermetic should have Fire, rather than Guardian, for their Combat Spirit for example